WI Extra Leaf 25c How they were made - VIDEO
EagleEye
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I recently uploaded two videos to You Tube regarding the WI Extra Leaf Quarters.
The first one tells how they were made
The second one tells about the discovery, the rarity and early values
Enjoy!
The first one tells how they were made
The second one tells about the discovery, the rarity and early values
Enjoy!
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
That Electron microscope is an awesome tool.
Thanks for cool post Rick.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
So somebody whacked both dies, intentionally, with the same "stamp", made sure only a limited number were made and then might went to San Antonio or Tuscon early to grab some for themselves. If a sudden hoard shows up...
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These coins have never interested me at all. Dont get me wrong, if I find one in circulation, Ill be happy as hell. But Im not going out to spend several hundred dollars on them.
Id sell it and buy a real coin.
<< <i>Good video.
These coins have never interested me at all. Dont get me wrong, if I find one in circulation, Ill be happy as hell. But Im not going out to spend several hundred dollars on them.
Id sell it and buy a real coin.
If they have no interest to you, why post in the thread? Are you sharing pain and misery for the rest of us?
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I thought you had me on ignore?
Also, I jumped in the thread within the first 5 posts. Wasnt that your problem before? I didnt post soon into the thread...
I honestly dont think I need to explain myself to you for any reason.
Even though I have no interest in OWNING any of these coins, I still find how they were made interesting.
Is that ok with you? Or should I just PM you before I post to a thread? That might be easier than acting childish, right?
Even though I have no interest in OWNING any of these coins, I still find how they were made interesting.
That's all that needed to be said.
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Im a troll? Why are you not crying in a Cac thread about your coins?
Go right to name calling like always. Youre a vulgar, angry little man.
You are way too pissy to be having any fun in this hobby. Do you need a hug?
<< <i>Well, Ill say whatever I want to. You are not my boss, friend, or anything.
Im a troll? Why are you not crying in a Cac thread about your coins?
Go right to name calling like always. Youre a vulgar, angry little man.
You are way too pissy to be having any fun in this hobby. Do you need a hug? >>
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Rick, thank you for posting those links, particularly the first one. Chris Pilliod and you present a very compelling argument for when and how the varieties were created. The thing I've yet to hear from anyone is a compelling argument why.
I've long since agreed to disagree with the majority of people on this point, but I still didn't see any evidence in the video that these two dies must have been modified intentionally. I can come up with any number of plausible scenarios where two dies are damaged in the same location by the same object which do not involve a rogue employee of the Denver Mint with a hammer and punch.
Again, this is not to demean the varieties or their collectabililty at all. I just think that if the "final word" is ever to be spoken on the cause of these coins, it will be spoken by a Denver Mint employee.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Has anyone investigated whether such a circular tool is a routine item in the toolbox of mint employees with access to annealed dies?
Philosophical questions: Rick and Chris convincingly establish that the extra leaf quarters result from die damage. Should deliberate die damage be worth so much more than routine die damage which usually fetches little premium (e.g., die breaks)? Since we have no way of knowing whether the dies were damaged accidentally or deliberately, why do we value these quarters highly?
Part of my answer to that would be that the value reflects the inordinate amount of publicity given to this die damage. Publicity isn't a sound numismatic footing.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>What is it about this variety that gets people's blood boiling?
Rick, thank you for posting those links, particularly the first one. Chris Pilliod and you present a very compelling argument for when and how the varieties were created. The thing I've yet to hear from anyone is a compelling argument why.
I've long since agreed to disagree with the majority of people on this point, but I still didn't see any evidence in the video that these two dies must have been modified intentionally. I can come up with any number of plausible scenarios where two dies are damaged in the same location by the same object which do not involve a rogue employee of the Denver Mint with a hammer and punch.
Again, this is not to demean the varieties or their collectabililty at all. I just think that if the "final word" is ever to be spoken on the cause of these coins, it will be spoken by a Denver Mint employee.
Sean Reynolds >>
Its hard to imagine that both dies were ACCIDENTALLY damaged in just the right spots to make it look natural. One MAYBE, but TWO?
<< <i>
Its hard to imagine that both dies were ACCIDENTALLY damaged in just the right spots to make it look natural. One MAYBE, but TWO? >>
I think this is the most compelling evidence that these were done intentionally. The odds that it happened twice on separate dies seem to be astronomical.
<< <i>They are not rare....they are however promoted. >>
Heavily promoted ..... overly promoted
And not in a class with the 3 leg or 55 double die
JMHO
<< <i>
<< <i>They are not rare....they are however promoted. >>
Heavily promoted ..... overly promoted
And not in a class with the 3 leg or 55 double die
JMHO >>
I agree with that statement.
What do these go for now in BU?
Please, list some here!
I am thinking of doing a "Answer the lingering questions video". This and the "Why did someone do it" question would be great. Frankly Sean, I do value your opinions, which is why I'd like to hear of ANY other plausible scenarios. I went over this with Mike Diamond two years ago and there was not one alternative scenario that came up that was plausible.
Smittys: I must disagree, these have not been promoted for many years. The 1937-D buffalo was despised as a gimmick when it came out. Montana was flooded with them. It's "just" an abraded die. But after so many years it is a "must own" coin in the Buffalo nickel series. The WI Extra leafs are already a "must own" for the Statehood Quarter series. (not that anyone here collects Statehood Quarters, apparently)
The continuation of the mark into the shallow ares of the design is natural, given that the tool was able to make contact with that area. It also proves that it wasn't a hub-though (along with the deformation that wouldn't occur) or a die scratch.
Edit: for spelling, morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
It is in the history, the beauty or in the questions they raise and answer. I don't think people who only ask "What is it worth" or "they must be wothless - look at the prices they sell for" are seeing the true benefit that these coins have produced. How many basic collectors are learning all about die production due to these coins. If they think these are neat, they will think other die varieties are neat as well, like the multi-denominational clashed dies of 1857 cents and quarters, 1870 nickels, 1864 two cents, or various misplaced digit varieties.
For example, one benefit may be that the knowledge gained by looking carefully and closely at coins may make collectors less susceptible to getting taken with a fake.
It never made sense to me, either, that these were accidentally made. And given the position and orientation of the marks similar to extra leaves, the fascination remains the same.
I suppose the hostility these draw from some quarters (pun intended) has to do with the perceived promotions of them.
But for me, the prominent visibility by the naked eye of the "leaves," their positions and appearances, and the remaining mysterious story about who did it and why, all are what make numismatics so much fun. I just think these quarters are wonderfully neat. without regard to what happens to their communality and prices.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Very educational.
Yeah, Rick, thanks for the continued interest and work with informing the public about these varieties. It is appreciated.
And as a side (to the others), if you don't like 'em, then please move along.....geez, people. It's like kicking a hornet's nest when someone brings up this topic.
<< <i>I recently uploaded two videos to You Tube regarding the WI Extra Leaf Quarters.
The first one tells how they were made
The second one tells about the discovery, the rarity and early values
Enjoy! >>
Verry interesting. If by any chance you redo them, I would suggest that you reshow the picture of the O punch in the softened state quarter die just after you show the picture of the depression below the "low leaf" die, to illustrate how the punch into the softened state quarter die threw up a shallow crater rim around the punch. Such a crater rim would have left the depression in the "low leaf" die.
I question the declaration that this is the final answer regarding these quarters, because no mention is made of the similar arc-shaped die damage by the ear on a Roosevelt dime die of that era, or of the much smaller circular die damage around the seated Lincoln figure on the reverse of some "P" Mint Lincoln cents of that era. Did the alleged Denver Mint employee who got fired previously work at the Philadelphia Mint? If not, what caused the similar, but smaller, ring-shaped punch marks on Philadelphia dies?
Also if you happen to redo these, I consider it a mistake to use altered pictures of Proof coins to illustrate the regular, "high leaf" and "low leaf" dies. It doesn't matter for the regular design, if you are just showing the design, but using altered pictures of the varieties weakens the argument for them. Just show normal un-retouched pictures. It will not matter if they are less than perfect.
TD
Both were caused by damage to the die, by a mint employee, both created interesting changes.
If/when mint employees over polish dies and create unattractive coins they are considered junk. This happens all the time, or has in the past (not so much now). If the "extra leaf" had been placed across the bottom of the coin it would probably just been considered damage and ignored. The reason that both the 3 leg and the extra leaf caught on is because the "damage" created an interesting design.
I agree that until a mint employee comes forward we will not know what happened but I don't think it matters at all!!
If we suddenly found out that the 3 leg was actually done on purpose would it change anything??....I don't think so.
It has always been assumed/written that the 3 leg was caused by a novice overpolishing after a die clash. It could just as well have been caused by an experienced employee that knew exactly what would happen if the die were over polished. In fact it had happened many times before. There are in fact lesser known partial leg coins from as far back as 1917....The mint knew what happened if you over polished a buffalo after a die clash...Maybe a mint emloyee knew the series was about to end and knew that there were no "Good" examples of 3 leg Buff's. Maybe he thought it would be funny.....But who cares?!??!! The coin was created. It is an interesting variety (even though it is just from die damage) and that is all there is to it!
The exact same thing goes for the Extra Leaf Quarters. Maybe a new employee was learning how to handle the anealed dies and did something wrong. That something caused a semicurcular indent in the die, and he did it twice to two different dies before he figured out what he was doing.....Maybe he thought the design could use an extra leaf and he did it on purpose......What does his intent have to do with the resulting coin??? My answer is, NOTHING!!
The fact is that the Extra Leaf Quarters are interesting, different die varieties......End of story.
<< <i>I think these coins are fun. The history is interesting also, If you disagree that is ok. I have not seen any videos from the other side but a lot of defensive posistioning, why is it such a big deal that they were made from a tool by a man in the mint? >>
My strongest objection has always been to people stating opinions about these coins as facts.
Theories are fun. Facts are something else. Give me FACTS!
TD
Good point. Also I should use a professional narrator.
The 2004-D Dimes are, I believe, linked to these coins. I don't think the cents with small circles are, though. I think there was an employee with access to the annealed dies (this would be a very short list) who wanted to give the Mint an embarrassment. I don't think profit could be the motive. When the dime fell flat and didn't cause a stir, he/she marked two dies at the same time to show it was definitely not an accident.
I hesitated injecting personal history into the value/rarity video, but I was part of the history, so I put it in. I didn't mention that the speculative bubble hit two months after I sold all my remaining stock, just prior to the 2006 FUN show. I have great timing. I kept one MS67 set as a personal momento, but offered it for sale on eBay when the speculative bubble hit. It got bids up to $10,000. The buble burst on that sale and the bidders unwound their bids. The final sale was $9,100, but I let the buyer out of the sale. I still have the set.
Like the theory of evolution!
One suggestion ... when comparing the arc on the two extra leaves, it would be clearer if one image is set partially transparent and overlayed on the other.
My World Coin Type Set
<< <i>Also if you happen to redo these, I consider it a mistake to use altered pictures of Proof coins to illustrate the regular, "high leaf" and "low leaf" dies. It doesn't matter for the regular design, if you are just showing the design, but using altered pictures of the varieties weakens the argument for them. Just show normal un-retouched pictures. It will not matter if they are less than perfect.
Good point. Also I should use a professional narrator.
The 2004-D Dimes are, I believe, linked to these coins. I don't think the cents with small circles are, though. I think there was an employee with access to the annealed dies (this would be a very short list) who wanted to give the Mint an embarrassment. I don't think profit could be the motive. When the dime fell flat and didn't cause a stir, he/she marked two dies at the same time to show it was definitely not an accident.
I hesitated injecting personal history into the value/rarity video, but I was part of the history, so I put it in. I didn't mention that the speculative bubble hit two months after I sold all my remaining stock, just prior to the 2006 FUN show. I have great timing. I kept one MS67 set as a personal momento, but offered it for sale on eBay when the speculative bubble hit. It got bids up to $10,000. The buble burst on that sale and the bidders unwound their bids. The final sale was $9,100, but I let the buyer out of the sale. I still have the set. >>
LOL, sounds like me and the stock market! The manner in which you handled that auction tells a lot about what kind of a person you are, Rick. And, fwiw, I think your narration on the video is excellent!
It never made sense to me, either, that these were accidentally made. And given the position and orientation of the marks similar to extra leaves, the fascination remains the same.
I suppose the hostility these draw from some quarters (pun intended) has to do with the perceived promotions of them.
But for me, the prominent visibility by the naked eye of the "leaves," their positions and appearances, and the remaining mysterious story about who did it and why, all are what make numismatics so much fun. I just think these quarters are wonderfully neat. without regard to what happens to their communality and prices.
I agree. It would be astronomical odds for the two dies to have been created accidentally.
The naysayers have taken a position that is comical. I can understand playing the devils advocate, but they all seem to have become so defensive that no matter what logic is used, they insist on holding their positions.
Of course the coins were promoted, and thousands of us that aren't so thick skulled are appreciative of the promotion that gave us the heads up. BTW, both the 55 ddo and 3 legged Bison were promoted. DQB himself was one that promoted the 55 ddo. If you don't think they were both promoted, then you prefer to live in ignorance just because you didn't witness the promoting first hand.
What makes me shake my head most of all is how some really minor Double Die coins, or minor mint error coins are promoted. Come on, I mean really, some of you want to have to look at your Lincoln pennies thru a Microscope to see the small doubling of a thumb etc. ?????? Another thing, what's so exciting about a bullion non coin ASE 2008 with a 07 REV ???, I mean really ... just hold a 2008 next to a 2007 and you get the same visual effects ........ They were all promoted ........................ so what's wrong with the WI Leaves being promoted. At least it's a coin with very interesting visual features that can be seen with the naked eye, and a great story behind it. After all, were the Lincoln ddo's created intentionally ??, No ..... you have to go back to the Dollar/Qtr Mules and other errors made by mint employees during 1999 I think !!!, prior to that you'd have to go back almost 100 yrs to find examples of employees creating coins for collectors. ( Don't quote me on exact dates or time periods, I'm not a walking Encyclopedia now that my memory isn't so great )
Personally, for me ........ I really love owning my WI x leaves. I've been collecting off and on since 1964 when silver prices etc created a huge boom in coin collectors. I own many classic coins that I love, but the WI x leaves are some of my very favorite coins to look at and own. As far as investment is concerned, so long as coin collecting remains a hobby, these qtrs have a great future. I know the prices are depressed now, but I think it's because so many people were discouraged the prices didn't keep going up continuously and therefore decided to sell. Too many speculators got involved and the prices got ahead of the value true collectors were willing to spend. Not many people have the ability to think long term, 30 yrs from now when they're considered part of the State Qtr set and valued as the key they are, they'll be telling the grandkids how they foolishly sold their set on ebay for $200. Eventually, once the Ebay speculators have all liquidated and they dry up, the collectors will set a bottom, prior to a steady climb in value.
Thank you Rick for taking the time to educate all of us on these neat coins. I sincerely mean that. Keep up the good work.
<< <i>So much for the original population estimates in the hundreds of thousands range.
So somebody whacked both dies, intentionally, with the same "stamp", made sure only a limited number were made and then might went to San Antonio or Tuscon early to grab some for themselves. If a sudden hoard shows up... >>
It's highly improbable that an employee would know where the production
of an individual die would be distributed. It's not as though the coins are
made to order. They'll go to the shipping department where they might
head almost anywhere. It might be possible to track them if you have con-
federates downstream but it's not likely.
Anyone hearing of Ford's discovery had the same chance to rush to Tucson
to find these coins. ...And he would have.
<< <i>
Rick, thank you for posting those links, particularly the first one. Chris Pilliod and you present a very compelling argument for when and how the varieties were created. The thing I've yet to hear from anyone is a compelling argument why. >>
Why would someone put together an entire set of 1968 PL's in one
package? Why would someone take a 1968 proof half and pound it
into a proof set. It's just a form of horseplay and a shot at immortality.
<< <i>
I've long since agreed to disagree with the majority of people on this point, but I still didn't see any evidence in the video that these two dies must have been modified intentionally. I can come up with any number of plausible scenarios where two dies are damaged in the same location by the same object which do not involve a rogue employee of the Denver Mint with a hammer and punch. >>
I think the fact that it's two sets of dies is the clincher. With one die
it might be taken as a fluke. With two coins released in different areas
it might be a pair of flukes.
But with two coins released in the same area it can be nothing but inten-
tion. I believe this would most likely even be true if the placement on the
dies were entirely random rather than artistic.
<< <i>
Again, this is not to demean the varieties or their collectabililty at all. I just think that if the "final word" is ever to be spoken on the cause of these coins, it will be spoken by a Denver Mint employee. >>
I believe he spoke loud and clear. If he was fired there's every chance
his pension is hung over his head to keep him silent.
Sure....there has been some promotion. Gonna happen for most anything. But, this one, at least, has something visually different about it than just a different, but normal, die used (2008w/2007 SAE), and could look normal if it wasn't in the minority (as opposed to speared bison, microscopic nuances in doubling, etc).
But, as with all things, to each their own in collecting
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I recently uploaded two videos to You Tube regarding the WI Extra Leaf Quarters.
The first one tells how they were made
The second one tells about the discovery, the rarity and early values
Enjoy! >>
Thanks Rick!
The name is LEE!
I learned a lot today!
Thank you...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Rick,
Are you still planning to publish a book on the Qtrs ?
If so, what is your target date ?
Thanks
<< <i>Theories are fun. Facts are something else. Give me FACTS!
Like the theory of evolution!
I do not consider myself knowledgeable in biology, so I do not comment on it.
I know coins.
TD
You did make this statement I found most interesting in one of your posts Rick.
<< <i>I think there was an employee with access to the annealed dies (this would be a very short list) who wanted to give the Mint an embarrassment. I don't think profit could be the motive >>
I would imagine that you know of the mint employee that was suspected of this, and another poster mentioned they were asked to leave. Do you have any knowledge if he (or she) was ever investigated as to whether they were a party to any sales of this variety? Call me cynical but I would have to believe personal profit would be a GREAT motive and would also undermine the mint at the same time.
<< <i>
The naysayers have taken a position that is comical. I can understand playing the devils advocate, but they all seem to have become so defensive that no matter what logic is used, they insist on holding their positions.
>>
Personally, I have always found the proponents to be highly defensive no matter what logic is used against them. Some seem to take any questioning of the coins as a personal attack on themselves.
I guess it all depends on whose die is being gored.
TD