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Jack Morris
markj111
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Jamie Moyer? Meet Jack Morris
July 15, 2009 1:24 PM
Leave it to TangoTiger to notice an inconvenient truth ...
Jack Morris has faced 16,501 batters in his MLB career, including the playoffs. His W/L record is 261-190. He has given up 1854 runs, earned or not, which is 5% less than the league average of his era.
Jamie Moyer has faced 16,533 batters, or one game's worth more than Morris. His W/L record is 257-194. That's 4 "games behind” from Jack Morris. He has given up 4% fewer runs than the league average.
Once his career is over, Jamie Moyer will be relegated to the same pool of pitchers occupied by Dennis Martinez, Frank Tanana, Bob Welch, Dave Stieb, Bret Saberhagen, Orel Hershiser, Steve Rogers and others in the Hall of Very Good.
Somehow Jack Morris continues to stand above them all, the black eye to the BBWAA that will be visible for the next five years.
Morris won 20 games twice; Moyer has won 20 games once. Morris never finished better than third in Cy Young balloting; Moyer hasn't finished better than fourth. Of course, the case can be overstated. Moyer has literally never led his league in a positive statistical category; Morris led his league in an "important" statistic seven times (though never, it should be noted, in ERA; never remotely close in ERA). Moyer's won three postseason games in his career; Morris won seven.
The real difference between Moyer and Morris, though, in the minds of the Hall of Fame voters?
Two things.
One: Morris won more games than any other pitcher in the 1980s.
Two: Game 7.
The first of those should matter only if you believe there was something special happening in the 1980s, something that made it particularly difficult for pitchers to win games. I don't know what that something might have been. After all, in the 1980s, nine different pitchers won more than 22 games in a season. Only six pitchers have done it in the 19 seasons since, which makes me think it might have been easier to win games in the 1980s than it would become, later. Makes me think that Morris leading the majors in the '80s with 162 victories was more of a fluke than anything else.
I could be wrong. I often am. But considering the above, I think the burden of proof lies somewhere else. If you can explain how Morris leading the 1980s is more than a statistical anomaly, you'll be the first.
The other thing, the Game 7 thing ... Well, that's really a matter of taste, isn't it? The Hall of Fame's voting rules expressly prohibit electing a player because of a single great season or game. Which isn't to say one great game (or season) isn't worth a bit of extra credit. But it seems to me that if Jack Morris hadn't pitched that brilliant game, he would have been consigned to the Hall of Very Good a long time ago.
Which is, with all due respect, exactly where he belongs.
July 15, 2009 1:24 PM
Leave it to TangoTiger to notice an inconvenient truth ...
Jack Morris has faced 16,501 batters in his MLB career, including the playoffs. His W/L record is 261-190. He has given up 1854 runs, earned or not, which is 5% less than the league average of his era.
Jamie Moyer has faced 16,533 batters, or one game's worth more than Morris. His W/L record is 257-194. That's 4 "games behind” from Jack Morris. He has given up 4% fewer runs than the league average.
Once his career is over, Jamie Moyer will be relegated to the same pool of pitchers occupied by Dennis Martinez, Frank Tanana, Bob Welch, Dave Stieb, Bret Saberhagen, Orel Hershiser, Steve Rogers and others in the Hall of Very Good.
Somehow Jack Morris continues to stand above them all, the black eye to the BBWAA that will be visible for the next five years.
Morris won 20 games twice; Moyer has won 20 games once. Morris never finished better than third in Cy Young balloting; Moyer hasn't finished better than fourth. Of course, the case can be overstated. Moyer has literally never led his league in a positive statistical category; Morris led his league in an "important" statistic seven times (though never, it should be noted, in ERA; never remotely close in ERA). Moyer's won three postseason games in his career; Morris won seven.
The real difference between Moyer and Morris, though, in the minds of the Hall of Fame voters?
Two things.
One: Morris won more games than any other pitcher in the 1980s.
Two: Game 7.
The first of those should matter only if you believe there was something special happening in the 1980s, something that made it particularly difficult for pitchers to win games. I don't know what that something might have been. After all, in the 1980s, nine different pitchers won more than 22 games in a season. Only six pitchers have done it in the 19 seasons since, which makes me think it might have been easier to win games in the 1980s than it would become, later. Makes me think that Morris leading the majors in the '80s with 162 victories was more of a fluke than anything else.
I could be wrong. I often am. But considering the above, I think the burden of proof lies somewhere else. If you can explain how Morris leading the 1980s is more than a statistical anomaly, you'll be the first.
The other thing, the Game 7 thing ... Well, that's really a matter of taste, isn't it? The Hall of Fame's voting rules expressly prohibit electing a player because of a single great season or game. Which isn't to say one great game (or season) isn't worth a bit of extra credit. But it seems to me that if Jack Morris hadn't pitched that brilliant game, he would have been consigned to the Hall of Very Good a long time ago.
Which is, with all due respect, exactly where he belongs.
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Comments
Keep in mind that the stats below include 6 and a half extra seasons for Moyer:
Games:
Morris 549
Moyer 654
IP:
Morris 3824
Moyer 3841
CG:
Morris 175
Moyer 31
ERA:
Morris 3.90
Moyer 4.23
Shutouts:
Morris 28
Moyer 9
K's:
Morris 2478
Moyer 2301
No comparison
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Robert
Morris had 1 19 win season, 2 18 win seasons, 2 17 win seasons and 2 16 win seasons.
Moyer had 1 17 win season and 1 16 win season.
Morris' average season was 16-12, 3.90 ERA and 157 Ks, over an 18-season career.
Moyer's average season as-of now is 14-10, 4.23 ERA and 125 Ks, over a so-far 23-season career.
So put it all together, and Morris makes the HOF cut IMO, and Moyer falls short.
Steve
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He will always be known as pitching to the score(when actually he was quite good at GIVING UP the lead...only to be bailed out time and time again by one of the best hitting teams in the league).
Morris was a work horse, and he certainly deserves credit for that. But he simply wasn't as good as a Dave Stieb or a Ron Guidry. His teammates and offense made it look to be(with high run support producing more wins).
But then again, the Hall of Fame is a vague entity...and if he is viewed as more popular than the guys who were better than him, and that is the criteria to get him in, then I guess a case can be made.
<< <i>Their is a great deal of similarity. Look at the stats you produced- IPs and SOs are similar. >>
Once again, pleae pay attention to the part where I mention that those stats include almost 7 full extra seasons for Moyer. With 7 extra seasons, Moyer still has not caught up with Morris in any significant pitching category.
<< <i>neither belongs in the Hall. >>
Agreed. However, Blyleven DOES deserve to go in, and hopefully on the next ballot.
<< <i>
<< <i>Their is a great deal of similarity. Look at the stats you produced- IPs and SOs are similar. >>
Once again, pleae pay attention to the part where I mention that those stats include almost 7 full extra seasons for Moyer. With 7 extra seasons, Moyer still has not caught up with Morris in any significant pitching category. >>
Are you saying it is a bad thing that Moyer is able to pitch longer than Morris? I consider that to be a good thing.
One: Morris won more games than any other pitcher in the 1980s.
Two: Game 7.
The first of those should matter only if you believe there was something special happening in the 1980s, something that made it particularly difficult for pitchers to win games. I don't know what that something might have been. After all, in the 1980s, nine different pitchers won more than 22 games in a season. Only six pitchers have done it in the 19 seasons since, which makes me think it might have been easier to win games in the 1980s than it would become, later. Makes me think that Morris leading the majors in the '80s with 162 victories was more of a fluke than anything else.
Perhaps. On the other hand, Morris had 254 victories from 1977-1994, the years when he pitched in the majors. No one else comes close to that total during those 18 years, and that includes only 4 combined wins in 1977 and 1978 when he started just 13 games. Not sure you can ask a guy to do more than that.
In terms of him playing on good teams, the Tigers were roughly 100 games over .500 (1163-1050) during Morris' tenure. Morris himself was 198-150, or roughly 50 games over .500. So close to 1/2 of the games over .500 are attributable to Morris. If these teams were so good and the hitters were carrying Morris, I would think the other pitchers from that time would have the numbers to show for it.
And starting pitchers with ERAs of 2.96 in 52 innings of World Series play do not exactly grow on trees.
I'm actually more in favor of Jack being in the HOF now than before I started this post . . .
<< <i>
In terms of him playing on good teams, the Tigers were roughly 100 games over .500 (1163-1050) during Morris' tenure. Morris himself was 198-150, or roughly 50 games over .500. So close to 1/2 of the games over .500 are attributable to Morris. If these teams were so good and the hitters were carrying Morris, I would think the other pitchers from that time would have the numbers to show for it.
>>
Jack Morris was the recipient of better than average run support. It is indisputable.
His run support from 1977-1990 was 4.85 runs
His run support from 1991-1994 was 5.44 runs
Look how well he was supported compared to all other American League pitchers during his career.
Run Support.........MORRIS STARTS........ALL OTHER AMERICAN LEAGUERS STARTS FROM 1977-1994
At least 1.............95.4%..................... 93.9%
At least 2 ............. 84.4% ................ 83.2%
At least 3...............73.6% ................ 69.5%
At least 4............... 60.3%................ 55.0%
At least 5.............. 47.8%................ 41.6%
At least 6............. 35.1%................. 30.1%
At least 7............. 25.2%.................. 21.0%
At least 8.............. 18.6% ................ 14.1%
At least 9 ............. 12.7% ................. 9.3%
As you can see, in the area of five runs of support or more, he received extraordinary support! Support of five runs or more are where 'wins' are racked up for all starting pitchers.
Interesting stuff. How do you get at those statistics?
Seems like the Tigers should have had a lot better success given that support. Or maybe they just hit when Jack pitched.
-Tom (detroitfan2)
Jack got similar support as his teammate pitchers got. He was a better pitcher than his rotation mates, so it stands to reason that his W/L record would be better than anyone else's on his team.
But he had an unfair advantage compared to other pitchers in the league(in terms of run support pumping up the W/L record).
Detroitfan2, they did have enough success to win a WS, make the playoffs, and be contenders. Come on man, are you being greedy here?
Jack Morris pitched almost half of his games in Tiger Stadium. Tiger Stadium would NEVER be confused with Dodger Stadium. Runs came in bunches there. So should we penalize Jack Morris by saying his ERA was high and he got run support? He also pitched in the American League for his entire career. Jamie Moyer has pitched quite a bit of his career in the National League. That means that instead of getting to pitch to heavy hitters like Steve Avery and David Cone in the lineup, Morris got a steady dose of Don Baylor, Jim Rice, Jose Canseco, etc.
Wins don't come by accident. If the Tigers felt that there was someone better to get the job done they would have gone out and found him. Jack won more games in his playing years than any other pitcher. He was the stud pitcher on THREE World Series Champions. His similarity score is similar to Moyer, but that does not take into account the time taken to get the stats, nor the postseason. His similarity scores give him an 885 with Bob Gibson, which seems to be pretty fair. Both had nice careers that weren't really super long enough to win 300 games. Both were the aces of their staffs for years, and both were postseason hammers. Let's go one step further with the postseason heroics. In 1984, in Game One of the World Series, the Tigers were up 3-2 going into the 9th inning. In their bullpen they had the 1984 AL MVP and Cy Young Award Winner Willie Hernandez ready to go. They kept Morris on the hill to complete the win against the Padres. In Game Four, the Tigers again let Morris go the distance in a 4-2 win. In Game Four of the 1991 Series, Morris was pitching a gem, but was pinch hit for in the seventh inning with the Twins holding a 2-1 lead in Atlanta. The relievers gave up two runs to lose the game. In Game Seven of the 1991 World Series, the Twins kept Jack Morris on the mound for all ten innings with everything on the line. If Jack Morris gives up one run, the Twins lose the World Series. Yet, Jack came through, just like they knew he would.
And we compare him to Jamie Moyer? Let's compare him with all of the other starting pitchers in the HOF. I think he fits in pretty darn well.
This might be a more ludicrous comparison than Jim Rice and Eddie Murray..
Edit: Regarding the Morris' postseason prowess, he definitely came up big in two postseasons (1984 & 1991), but was below average to awful in his other rwo postseasons (1987 & 1992).
Would be interesting to see Hoop break down his stats home and away when he pitched for Detroit, to see if there is any significant difference there.
Interestingly enough, despite all the talk about how Morris pitched in the AL and in a hitter friendly park, his career league adjusted ERA+ of 105 is IDENTICAL to Moyer's..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think if you threw him into a crowd with Don Sutton, Don Drysdale, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, and Early Wynn you would have a hard time convincing me that Morris wasn't their equal. You don't have to strike out 20 guys per game. You don't have to pitch a shutout. You just have to pitch better than the guy pitching for the other team on that day. Jack Morris did that more than any pitcher in his time.
Morris's home parks were barely above neutral as run scoring environments. So what actually occured was that he pitched for good offensive teams and in neutral parks. Your theory is simply not accurate.
The fact is that he received more run support than what a typical pitcher in the league received, is why his wins were inflated. Other better pitchers like Dave Stieb didn't have that luxury.
His career ERA for home games was 3.90
His career ERA for road games was 3.88
Why do you get excited over a 3.80 lifetime post season ERA, compared to his 3.90 career ERA? There is no difference there. He was the same pitcher in the post season as the regular season. That doesn't make him some sort of post season God because he had a couple of good starts.
It is all about what the Hall is or is not. If it is to honor the greatest of the greats, then we will have only 20-30 players in the Hall and guys like Al Kaline and Carl Yastrzemski will be on the outside looking in. If it is to honor players with long outstanding careers like Kaline and Yaz, that were not of Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb value, then we must also compare Morris to ALL of the members already enshrined, and not just the best. I think his numbers and his performance on the big stage compare favorably.
Edit to add: A large part of Morris' appeal is those two postseasons where he no dount delivered the goods and brought home a championship in the process, and because of that I believe he gets more credit than he truly deserves as far as being a HOFer. As I stated earlier, the other two postseasons he played in were rather poor by any standard.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Someone earlier used Jamie Moyer in a comparison. I have never, ever thought of him as a Hall of Famer, but if he pitches four more years and gets to 300 wins would I support him? Yep.
Willie Mays had 23 voters not vote for him, Stan Musial the same, and 17% of the voters felt that Walter Johnson was not worthy of the Hall. Only 76% of the voters voted for Cy Young or Lefty Grove, but 99% voted for Nolan Ryan who had only a slightly better than .500 lifetime record. Whether Jack Morris gets in or not is a crapshoot.
The likelihood of Morris ever getting inducted into the HOF is very remote, IMO...Blyleven without a doubt deserves to be in the HOF before Morris...the pct of votes a guy gets is not a legitimate gauge to determine worthiness for the Hall, as a) most baseball writers are clueless when it comes to voting for any number of awards including the HOF (these are the same voters who awarded Palmiero a Gold Glove at 1B when he was a DH and who also awarded the 1942 AL MVP to Joe Gordon over Ted Williams after he hit for the Triple Crown) and b) no one will ever get in unanimously as a number of voters will not vote for a slam dunk first ballot HOFer on principle only because Ruth and Cobb weren't unanimous, either, though those voters are fewer in number than they were back when Mays was inducted...I'd venture to say that if Mays came up for induction next year that the number of voters not voting for him would decrease from 23 to about 3...after all, these are the same voters who just recently inducted Bruce Sutter, for chrissakes..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Some of the Post War guys you use make me scratch my head at why you think he is nearly as good. What is influencing you is the bloated W/L record, which I already pointed out is due to a very good hitting team behind him.
You use Phil Niekro and Don Sutton.
Morris has a career ERA+ of 105. 100 is league average. He had 3,824 IP.
Niekro has a career ERA+ of 115. 100 is league average. He had 5,404 IP.
Sutton has a career ERA+ of 108 100 is league average. He had 5,282 IP.
Morris may look close to them in ERA+, but when you notice that he pitched 1,400 and 1,600 LESS innings then both of them, it then becomes a very large gap between their value. How big? Look at it this way...
Morris pitched 3,824 innings at an ERA+ rate of 105. Niekro also threw 3,824 innings in his career at an ERA+ rate of 105, matching Morris perfectly.
But, Niekro also threw another 1,580 innings at an ERA+ rate of appx 133!!! How good is that?
Roy Halladay has 1,930 IP, and an ERA+ of 132.
So in essence, Niekro matched Morris's career, and added a Roy Halladay(minus one season) on top of that!!!
Gaylord Perry? When you said you can put him in that crowd, it made me wonder if you were dabbling in some other type of powder.
I think if you threw him into a crowd with Don Sutton, Don Drysdale, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, and Early Wynn"
see, now you just made me laugh. good job!
some of those guys, are comparable; but lets face it, Morris isn't a hall of famer, you know it, the writers know it. A better pitcher than Morris is Luis Tiant, and he isnt getting in the Hall. An every better pitcher is Blyleven and he is a full step higher than Morris and should have been enshrined years ago.
"It is all about what the Hall is or is not. If it is to honor the greatest of the greats, then we will have only 20-30 players in the Hall and guys like Al Kaline and Carl Yastrzemski will be on the outside looking in'
Honsestly, you don't think that yaz and Kaline are elite players?
Yaz played in an era more dominated by pitching, how many 50+ HR seasons occurred during his playing days? yet he hit 40+ 3 times, won three batting titles, had 450+ HR, 1800 Runs, 1800 RBI's and 3400 hits. He was a 16 time all star, 7 time gold glover. He won an MVP and a triple crown; that my friend is a Hall of Famer.
Kaline had a long, productive carerr, nearly 400 Homers, 3000+ hits, an all star 14 times, 10 time gold glove winner.
you need better material.
All that you say about Yaz's career accomplishments is true, but consider this:
He was a .285 career hitter who hit .300 or better only 6 times in a 23-year career. He did hit 40 homers 3 times, but those 3 seasons were the only times that he reach the 30 mark. He reached 20 homers only 8 times (including the (3) 40-homer seasons), and scored 100 or more runs in only 2 seasons. He was also a member of zero World Series championships. Those are NOT HOF numbers.
In my opinion, Yaz is among the most overrated players in baseball history. However, he probably still deserves to be a HOF. More goes into HOF consideration than just numbers, all-star appearances, and awards. Personality, popularity, and significant achievements (like winning a triple crown, ala Yaz) are also considered.
I guess my point is that Morris, in my opinion, deserves HOF status based on several things. He pitched a no-hitter, was a significant part of 4 WS champs, was a 5-time all-star, and was MLB's winningest pitcher for the 1980's. Yes, he did have LOTS of run support, but no other Detroit pitcher came close to matching Morris' consistency. His talent had to be a contributor.
Edited for clarity: I meant to say that no other Detroit pitcher in Morris's time matched his consistency (or achievements, for that matter).
<< <i>Ichiro,
I guess my point is that Morris, in my opinion, deserves HOF status based on several things. He pitched a no-hitter, was a significant part of 4 WS champs, was a 5-time all-star, and was MLB's winningest pitcher for the 1980's. Yes, he did have LOTS of run support, but no other Detroit pitcher came close to matching Morris' consistency. His talent had to be a contributor.
Edited for clarity: I meant to say that no other Detroit pitcher in Morris's time matched his consistency (or achievements, for that matter). >>
If that is the definition of the HOF, more so than how good a player actually was, then a case can be made for Morris...and MANY others as well.
But the contention is that PowderedH20 is saying that Morris is as good as vastly superior pitchers, mainly because of a plumped up win total(due to good offense). As outlined above, Phil Niekro had Morris's career value, and added the value of Roy Halladay's on top of it.
Yaz is a very qualified HOF player based on his performance.
Ideally, the HOF should be restricted to those who were truly great players. Sadly, that has not been the reality for many decades. It pains me to say this, but if the HOF were limited to only the greatest, my all-time favorite player---Willie Stargell---would not be in.
I can't disagree with any of your Jack Morris evaluations/comparisons. I just believe that he merits HOF status based on the criteria that the voters have long applied to other inductees.
To drive my point home about Yaz (and I apologize to his supporters, as I don't mean to "dump" on him), I ask simply that one look at his career as objectively as possible. You should find that he was a very good player and a very likeable man who had only two great seasons (1967/1970) in a 23-year career. Yet, Yaz still deserves his HOF status. I believe the same standard SHOULD be applied to Morris' career.
We often hear the expression, "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good." Really, though, it is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Great Players. Morris was an excellent pitcher who distinguished himself among his peers for a good many years.
I could not care less if Jack Morris gets in the Hall or not. Makes no difference to me. I enjoyed watching him pitch, so if he makes it I say, "Good for him."
As far as implying use of any powder goes, I have been courteous and respectful of your arguments and I understand them. I respectfully disagree, but I certainly understand why you feel the way you do. I would hope that you can respect how I feel and why I feel that way and leave any personal nastiness out of it.
Your arguments with wins mean nothing until you understand the run support that was clearly laid out.
Phil Niekro pitched the same amount of innings as Jack Morris did, and at the same rate.
Then he pitched another 1,800 innings at the rate of Roy Halladay.
The W/L record is a result of luck, run support, bullpen...all things completely out of the starting pitchers control.
You are right. It is the job of a pitcher to help a team win. The best way to accomplish that is to give up the least amount of runs per inning, and for as many innings, as possible. Nikero did that MUCH, MUCH better than Jack Morris...as he had Morris's career, plus Roy Halladay's.
The only thing that makes their W/L percentage closer is because Morris had the luxury of having one of the BEST run support in the league.
By the way, the ERA+ compares them to the league average. So they are not right there like you say. Niekro's was 115, Morris 105, and Niekro's was over 1,800 more innings(Morris's career plus Roy Halladays). That is the difference, he had Morris's value, and added Halladay's on top of it.
But first, you have to understand the Run support data, as that is an absolute key. Morris's career ERA is just barely above the league average ERA for the league's he pitched in. Is a guy who is barely above league average a HOFer? That should be your question.
Yes, for somebody to say that Jack Morris is equal to Phil Niekro suggests one of two things, 1)He is a novice baseball analyst, or 2)Is on some sort of crack.
Seasons Top Ten in ERA: Niekro 4 Morris 5
Seasons Top Ten in Wins: Niekro 12 Morris 12
Seasons Top Ten in Cy Young Voting: Niekro 5 Morris 7
Seasons Top Ten in W/L Percentage: Niekro 4 Morris 5
Seasons Top Ten in Strikeouts per Nine Innings Pitched: Niekro 5 Morris 5
Seasons Top Ten in Walks & Hits per Nine Innings Pitched: Niekro 5 Morris 5
Seasons Top Ten in Complete Games: Niekro 10 Morris 10
Seasons Top Ten in Shutouts: Niekro 10 Morris 8
Seasons Top Ten in Adjusted ERA: Niekro 7 Morris 4
Seasons Top Ten in Losses: Niekro 8 Morris 4
All-Star Games: Niekro 5 Morris 5
Gold Gloves: Niekro 5 Morris 0
Career Postseason Wins: Niekro 0 Morris 7
World Series Titles: Niekro 0 Morris 3
World Series MVP Awards: Niekro 0 Morris 1
I could've listed fifteen more categories and the numbers would look much the same. Notice how SIMILAR they are? I'm guessing the fact that Morris finished in the top ten in ERA more times than Niekro despite playing seven seasons less was because of the great run support that the Tigers gave him. The difference in their lifetime records is that Phil hung on for seven more years and added a 64-88 record onto Jack Morris without adding any additional Top Tens in any seasonal categories. So basically he hung around long enough to get career numbers to get into the Hall of Fame. No wonder you are such a Jamie Moyer fan. I'm not a novice. I'm not on crack. It is all very clear to me.
You can take most of those categories out of your list, because they mean nothing in comparing the value/ability of the two. Cy Young votes? Yeah, because the writers look at W/L record and are dumb not to recognize run support either. Plus, when a player is on a bad team he gets ignored as well. All Star teams, same thing. Also, don't stop at top ten. Top 14 is pretty darn good too!
Do you want to see how Much Niekro dwarfed Morris. Here are each of their best seasons in ERA+, listed side by side(140+ IP seasons or more). This shows you that Niekro was not only a better pitcher for MUCH longer, but that he was also MORE dominant!
Nikero...Morris
179......133
159......127
142......126
142......124
125......124
124......122
123......117
118.......109
116.......102
116.......100
115.......99
111........98
104.......89
102.......83
101.......79
98.........70
98..........0(same value as you or I)
96..........0(same value as you or I)
72..........0(same value as you or I)
As you can see, Nikero had FOUR seasons better than Morris's best. Niekro's best beats Morris's best, his second best beats Morris's second best, and that same pattern holds all the way through to retirement(where Niekro was still viable, and Morris was as good as you or I).
Morris was actually below league average 7 out of his 17 years as a full time starter, with a few of those being downright awful.
Next, do this same exercise with IP, and their rank between each, or among the league. The gap widesn. By how much? It widens enough to give Niekro the same value as Jack Morris and Roy Halladay combined.
So now another myth is blown. The myth that Niekro was a hanger on. Because he was actually much more dominant than Morris was in his best years. The thing that gets novices is that the W/L record skews it because Morris received MUCH MORE run support relative to the rest of the league. See several posts above. Why you keep ignoring it is puzzling.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'd agree with you that the voters place undue emphasis on such statistical categories as wins for a potcher. There's no question that the voters make all kinds of questionable to ridiculous determinations (voting Sutter in the Hall, awarding Palmoero a Gold Glove at 1B when he was the DH, awarding the MVP to Joe Gordon over Ted Williams and his Triple Crown, just to name a few), but the debate here, in my mind, is not so much will a particular player get enough HOF votes or get enshrined, but is such a player truly deserving or not. And in the case of Morris, the answer is no. Furthermore, Morris has not even gotten close to induction in his first 10 years on the ballot, not even reaching 2/3 of the necessary votes, and I seriously doubt he will get in anyway, so maybe the voters in this particular case, understand that Morris is not deserving as well.
In short, no, I don't believe that Jamie Moyer is a better pitcher than Jack Morris was (though they are in the same ballpark, relatively speaking), but Phil Niekro (and Bert Blyleven, for that matter) were definitely better pitchers than Jack Morris.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have enjoyed tremendously reading your arguments on this thread. Not only are they all logical and well-presented, they are all civil in tone. That's not something we see very often in a "debate" thread.
I have come to one certain conclusion. When it comes to determining whether a borderline player is worthy of HOF induction, convincing one with an opposing view is next to impossible. It sure is fun to discuss, though.
I tip my cap to you all.
Agreed...debating the merits of one player vs another is always interesting, and cordial discourse is always a plus...now, if the Philly fans were posting here, that'd be a whole 'nother story..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
When you look at their year by year ERA+ totals side by side, it should be 'punch in the nose' obvious how much better Niekro was than Morris. His 115 ERA+ over his 5,000 innings is so much more valuable than Morris's 105 ERA+ over his 3,800 IP. Laying them side by side shows that Niekro has him beat every season, and then some. How valuable? Niekro has Morris's career and Halladays on top.
As a note for future reference to you, when you find other guys with high ERA+, check their IP totals. Many of them only have 1,200 or 1,800 innings. Don't go hog wild on them until you have all the info.
Your other categories you posted? Do the same exercise as I did with ERA+ and list them side by side, for ALL YEARS. The combination of ERA and IP is 95% of the information needed to ascertain the value of a pitcher.
Your other categories that relate to wins, as I stated before, are biased towards MOrris due to the high offense. THe post season appearances are also related to the team, and not the individual. The awards/All star games are a result of looking at 'Wins' totals.
You are using measruements that measure the teams' Morris was on, as opposed to measuring him...and doing the same for Niekro.
A good analyst measures what is in control of the player in question.
How would you feel if your boss docked your salary because some bum in the mail room never broght up your timely mail properly(there were no alternatives) and you lost business because of it....ANd there was nothing you can do about this employee.