Counterfeit 1989 Fleer Bill Ripken FF error ??

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Or different printer/screening or whatever ?


Suspect Card on right is redder. Duller pic.

Lighter/cleaner gray on back on suspect card.

Look at the Orange stripe. Orange background w/red dots. opposite on other card

R next to Orioles logo (Registration mark) bigger

Look at black dots on right border. When I enlarged, you can see on left they are horizontal and on right they go diagonally.

Printed in USA font looks smaller.

1989 FLEER CORP PHILA 19141 smaller on suspect card and larger copyright symbol.

Logo on suspect has larger bird feet/bat.

Pic cropped different. Less sleeve shows, less dirt triangle on right.

CNote

I say fake. From my 8 years in the printing industry, I can tell you that the plates would keep the color very uniform even if/when they went back to do a second or third run.

MattinglyStash

In the top pic, which one is the saw cut?

mikeschmidt

I say real -- there are a lot of slight differences in color in many issues over the years for various issues.

slantycouch

I'd be less worried about the color variations and say the diagonal dot pattern is the giveaway. Every 1989 Fleer I have here (not just BR's) have the vertical dot pattern.

billwaltonsbeard

Donovan, from all the articles I've read that you have posted, I remember something about Fleer using multiple printing facilities in 89. I've opened boxes that are lighter/darker than other boxes and never thought much of it.

slantycouch

<< <i>I say fake. From my 8 years in the printing industry, I can tell you that the plates would keep the color very uniform even if/when they went back to do a second or third run. >>



You're probably right, but different plates had to be made for the variations of this card. If I remember correctly, Donovan thinks that (at least?) two different printing facilities were used as well.

(I hope that's right D - please call me out of not)

Edited for spelling.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>I'd be less worried about the color variations and say the diagonal dot pattern is the giveaway. Every 1989 Fleer I have here (not just BR's) have the vertical dot pattern. >>



Mine too. At least the 30 or so FF cards I have with me at work. All have the smaller R as well.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>Donovan, from all the articles I've read that you have posted, I remember something about Fleer using multiple printing facilities in 89. I've opened boxes that are lighter/darker than other boxes and never thought much of it. >>



Yes more than one printer. I've assumed the color variations were from (whatever) running low or just changed.

But the different printers I assume had different plates made, I assume that's why the different Black Box varaitions and such. But never seen one with a bigger R and the dot pattern different, or the Orange stripe colors inverted.

This one also just looks off I guess. Pics kinda blurred. Gray is brighter.

I've held quite a few FF acrds and never seen one like this. The front gray color looks like the glossy cards. Not the sheen but the look/color.

I just might have to bust it out of it's GEM 10 holder for closer inspection. Yeah...a GEM. lol

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>In the top pic, which one is the saw cut? >>



Saw cut is Loop Black Scribble Saw Cut.

Questionable card is a FF

In top pic, the saw cut is to the left.

gameusedhoop

<< <i>Donovan, from all the articles I've read that you have posted, I remember something about Fleer using multiple printing facilities in 89. I've opened boxes that are lighter/darker than other boxes and never thought much of it. >>



As I was reading the thread before I got to this I remembered seeing this too. I wouldn'y be too worried, but then again I have no investment here either.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

No worries. No investment. All risk and completion is my reward.

Kinda hoping it's counterfeit. A whole new chapter.....

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Without checking I recall Outlook Graphics and Panel Prints in Old Forge PA. doing the printing. Although a ex Mgmt employee who came to Fleer in '91 told me they never outsourced and did all their printing there. I called him a liar and hung up. ..kidding.

1960toppsguy

It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . .

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

^^ Untrue.



Cropping differences

card on right is the suspect - Look at the dirt triangle







card on left is suspect. sleeve touching edge

Aric

<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>



Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>

<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>



Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day. >>



Are you refering to the Whiteouts and saw cuts being altered from other versions or the actual FF being printed by a counterfitter.

If the latter, please elaborate. I'm only aware of the 1989 Donruss Griffey being counterfitted.

Aric

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>



Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day. >>



Are you refering to the Whiteouts and saw cuts being altered from other versions or the actual FF being printed by a counterfitter.

If the latter, please elaborate. I'm only aware of the 1989 Donruss Griffey being counterfitted. >>



Hmm, I remember hearing back in 1989 that the FF card had been counterfeited. I thought I also remembered reading it but ........if you are not aware of it that certainly makes me skeptical. I tried to do some googling but most searches led back to your page. lol.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

I know there was a Black/White "Test" card that was counterfeit, but nothing else.

What do you mean most searches? Not all? I have some work to do.....

Allen

Makes me thing counterfeit, but it is very high quality work if it is.

mtcards

Not sure about any fakes, but looking at the two cards you have pictured in regards to the "dirt triangle" and "shirt touching" card, I would say that both cards would most likely be real since unless someone had access to the original photo, it would be impossible for them to counterfeit a card that is cropped that way.

What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with.

matthewbschultz83

<< <i>Not sure about any fakes, but looking at the two cards you have pictured in regards to the "dirt triangle" and "shirt touching" card, I would say that both cards would most likely be real since unless someone had access to the original photo, it would be impossible for them to counterfeit a card that is cropped that way.

What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with. >>



I agree with this guy....

I was trying to figure out a way to type that without out making it sound like I am a retard.

EagleEyeKid

I don't know much about this issue, but I remembered the rick face card was selling for $100-$125 back in the days,
so it wouldn't surprise me if it was counterfeited.

BunchOBull

Counterfeits always seem to be cropped just a bit tighter than the real deal.

Allen and his collecting friend sent this to me. The scan actually draws out the differences. In hand, they aren't as blatant.

hotmush

For whatever it's worth, note that Fleer did use Canadian printers in 1990. They could have tested the Canadian process in 1989. Perhaps these were printed in Canada and not marked as such?

thekid8

<< <i>Not sure about any fakes, but looking at the two cards you have pictured in regards to the "dirt triangle" and "shirt touching" card, I would say that both cards would most likely be real since unless someone had access to the original photo, it would be impossible for them to counterfeit a card that is cropped that way.

What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with. >>




If the top card is real (Card A) --- than the back card (Card could be fake -- it is cropped "tighter" ~~ less dirt less sleeve
All the faker would need is an original card image and go from there

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

The card resides in a GEM 10 (yeah..) holder at home. I'll bring it tomorrow and crack it out and see how if feels, weight it etc.

mcschu

Been teaching printing for 11 years and work in the industry now for over 18 years. Not saying there isn't a fake out there but... You will see variations in color no matter how good the printer. How much an issue was quality to fleer or the printer at that time? Were some of the "not too bad" test sheets or startup run not taken out? Until Upper Deck came on the scene most of the cards printing quality was newsprint standard.

Now days we have electronic densitometers that read color bars/ keys and automatically adjust ink to keep as consistant as possible yet still never perfectly the same on every impression. Otherwise it was "printers eye" with naked eye or loupe or comparing every so many impressions and then make adjustments to keep the same. Especially if there was 2 different print houses used there would be the possibility of two different color variations. I've seen areas using spot color look different from one printer to another. (not good) The angle of the halftone dot is from screening the dots to avoid a moire pattern. Black is traditionally 45 degrees.

Here is a spot my students and i refer to.
halftone screening

Got rid of my dark room at school to make more lab space. Now i have RIP systems and Platemakers that make plates like a "printer". those dots can be set to hafltone angles but if not specific it uses a stochastic or random dot like a lot of newer ink jet printers. those do not look so horizontal like your one ripken sample. that seems weird to me.

the 1991 fleer set is ridled with cropping variations because of different printers used. Anyone recall any other cropping variations in the 89 fleer set other then this one pointed out? I haven't. And most of us as error collectors are trained to look for that. Although we probably raced through packs just looking for RIpken or Johnson Marlboro! What cards are next to Ripken on the uncut sheet? Might have to dig through commons to compare some of those.

I better finish up my grad school paper so i can go home and start comparing....

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

mcschu-Thanks dropping in and sharing info.

The cards immediately around Ripken on the sheet are C. Sabo, A Thomas, P Smith, E. Murray, E. Davis, Al Hall, Jim Trabler, F. Williams.

My buddy looked at all his FF, as well as some other cards and didn't turn up anything. I still have yet to finish, but so far all the same size R.

I PM'd a guy who has a few 89 F Sabos he could check.

onefasttalon

I have a "few" of the Sabo's... I'll have to check'em out when I can!

Interesting subject... sure hope it's just print-quality differences and not a fake(s.)

I've opened my shared of '89 Fleer myself, and can testify to seeing a fairly wide range of color differences & SIZE differences.... but never get it much thought.

jp1216

jp1216

Hey Donovan...

mcschu

OK so I took a loupe to all my ripkens of various variations and all the same like example A. No cropping differences, same size text.

Thought it was wierd that the haftone pattern for black was not at a 45 degree angle. It should look diamond like not box like or nice vertical and horizontal rows. Called my old boss and he said not that rare really if high quality is not priority or if not on coated stock. Not everyone follows the rules and sometimes people do it differently depending on preference or on how they know their equipment produces. Ok then. So i would be interested to take a good look with a loupe at that fake.

Speaking of fake the B&W test fake card is funny to look at under a loupe. definitely a mess!

DR, does the black dots on the accused ripken look pretty uniform or more splattery like the fake B&W card?


So i was looking at the 3 different black scribble variations since i had the loupe out. Kind of funny that the scribble marking itself is exactly the same on all 3. It is not that someone took a deletion pen and did 3 different scribbles on 3 different plates.Or maybe a pinhole blackout pen on a negative? Some sort of darkroom overlay to the negative then new plates where made? Lite loop/ No F has a white background change with no FF words then the scribble. the Loop scribble and the F scribble look like the "overlay", or whatever, was just positioned differently over the words. wierd.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

....Hey Jon.

(Jon is the other half of br.com.) He makes all the words appear on the site and does those elaborate drawings you see above. I'm more of a Crayon guy myself.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

MS- Cards at home. I'll bring it tomorrow, crack it out and get bigger pics, card out of slab and side by side better etc. Then I'll send it off to get scanned as I don't have a working scanner. I recall the dots looked normal, unlike the B/W card.

fandango

donovan, looks like different printing press printed at a different time, but not necessarily counterfeit....

card B has a "wider shot" than card B so it cant be a "copy" of that....."copies" can only have the same or smaller borders...

BunchOBull

<< <i>donovan, looks like different printing press printed at a different time, but not necessarily counterfeit....

card B has a "wider shot" than card B so it cant be a "copy" of that....."copies" can only have the same or smaller borders... >>



Scott, on the Thomas counterfeit I posted, the back image is cropped smaller as would be expected, the front image doesn't have to be, however, because the border is white and makes copying easier.

In the case of the Ripkens, Card B appears cropped tighter than Card A, as if it is the copy of the original image.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Busted card from GEM 10 slab.

If anyone finds any '89 Fleer like the card in question, please let me know. Unsure if I need to now find all 'B' versions. lol

Card is shorter. Orioles logo bat/feet larger.

All 4 edges have a 'lip' so to speak. I assume this was done from cutting too slowly.

The FF knob especially, is dull. Not as sharp contrast.

I'm sending to a friend to scan.

Looked thru the 50 or so FF cards I have. All same size R. Went thru a few hundred commons and nothing.

The card with the white on the knob....is fake. Someone peeled away the knob to try and create a version.

Out of slab pics....


Short Card in question



Card on right in question


Card on top in question



Card on right in question



Card on right in question



Card on top in question

thekid8

My bet ($1.00) is that "Card on Right" is a fake

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>My bet ($1.00) is that "Card on Right" is a fake >>



I'm thinking that too. Especially after cracking it out.

If it is fake I wonder if it would get past graders.

I mean, who looks for counterfeit '89 Fleer? Likely they just look for altered versions (ie Whiteout)

slantycouch

I would guess fake too. Again I'm not surprised by color variations, but I have yet to see a single 98F that has a 45 degree halftone. That's the only one.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Scans....

(Now what was that company that said they would pay $1500 if they slabbed a counterfeit...

Possible theories-

Counterfeit-

Fleer/Canadian test run (Anyone have a 1990 Fleer Canadian to compare dots with?)-

From second printer (Although unlikely, IMO, as I nor my FF buddies have any Large R Ripkens-

EagleEyeKid

(Now what was that company that said they would pay $1500 if they slabbed a counterfeit...


It's NSA

Funny how the beginning states that they are a "card manufacturer as well as card graders".

Send it in.....collect that $1,500. Would love to see the drama that could develop

slantycouch

I think "*upon verification" would likely get them out of it and they'd say they can't verify it's a fake.

But obviously that's not based on fact.

jp1216

My 2 cents:

I just examined this card. Very strange. IF it is counterfeit - it is one of the best. I've never seen fake FF cards before (besides the 'Test Run B/W' cards).

Orioles logo: It is clearer, brighter, crisper than the real card. The real FF cards look fake in comparison. The 'registered trademark' R logo is larger on the card in question.

On the back: Text on the bottom is smaller/clearer than the real cards. Back overall is clearer - better color/clarity. The MLB logo is slightly different too. Slightly different font size within the logo.

Card stock is slightly thinner. Nothing like the B/W 'Test Run' card. Similar to an OPC card from the 80s. Slightly thinner than a regular Fleer from 1989.

I've seen fake '86 Jordans, '79 Gretzkys, '68 Ryans, etc - and this one stumps me.

hammered

I don't think it's fake and here is why:
Most counterfeits are copies of the actual card, that is why key tells are the trademark logos. When it is a copy, the really fine detail becomes blurry.
This card has differences (ie, bat+feet size on the Oriole, cropping) that would require the faker to actually create a brand new image on a plate. Even creating the highest quality copy of a card (which is what counterfeiters do) would not change the proportions of the bird in the logo or the location of the trademark info.
I say it's real and just printed at a different Fleer facility with a different (but similar) plate.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

On this counterfeit Jordan, it has all the common signs of a fake, blurred parts, bad dots etc but the (R) is lower on the fake. Some fakes ahve the copyright (C) as well. Can that be done by copying? or ?

Counterfeit Jordan

slantycouch

If it's real, I still don't understand why none of us have ever seen a 1989F with a diagonal halftone. Shouldn't there be at least one out there?

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Well....there is ONE !

Unless the FF really is rare and the diagonal is really real and all the horizontal, including my banner is fake. Time to start the collection over...lol

I think in the future I'll inspect '89 Fleer more closely. I recall seeing off color and 'different' cards in my busts but never paid them any mind.

Just odd that all my versions are the same (R) etc. Same for my buddy. It's possible, but odd. I just sent out 10+ emails to FF collectors and I'll see what they have.

Anyone have a 1990 Fleer American and 1990 Fleer Canadian they can get a large scan of? To compare print patterns.

slantycouch

<< <i>Well....there is ONE ! >>



Haha touche.

AgnusDei

I think the card is a counterfeit. No question. I collected a lot of material from this time period. Size is different. Color is different. Variations in font styles. Different type of cut/lack of chipping on bottom edge. Variance in gray printing pattern. All the hallmarks are there. The size notwithstanding, I bet there's a weight difference too.