Counterfeit 1989 Fleer Bill Ripken FF error ??
1989FleerBillRipkencollector
Posts: 4,590
Or different printer/screening or whatever ?
Suspect Card on right is redder. Duller pic.
Lighter/cleaner gray on back on suspect card.
Look at the Orange stripe. Orange background w/red dots. opposite on other card
R next to Orioles logo (Registration mark) bigger
Look at black dots on right border. When I enlarged, you can see on left they are horizontal and on right they go diagonally.
Printed in USA font looks smaller.
1989 FLEER CORP PHILA 19141 smaller on suspect card and larger copyright symbol.
Logo on suspect has larger bird feet/bat.
Pic cropped different. Less sleeve shows, less dirt triangle on right.
Suspect Card on right is redder. Duller pic.
Lighter/cleaner gray on back on suspect card.
Look at the Orange stripe. Orange background w/red dots. opposite on other card
R next to Orioles logo (Registration mark) bigger
Look at black dots on right border. When I enlarged, you can see on left they are horizontal and on right they go diagonally.
Printed in USA font looks smaller.
1989 FLEER CORP PHILA 19141 smaller on suspect card and larger copyright symbol.
Logo on suspect has larger bird feet/bat.
Pic cropped different. Less sleeve shows, less dirt triangle on right.
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Comments
<< <i>I say fake. From my 8 years in the printing industry, I can tell you that the plates would keep the color very uniform even if/when they went back to do a second or third run. >>
You're probably right, but different plates had to be made for the variations of this card. If I remember correctly, Donovan thinks that (at least?) two different printing facilities were used as well.
(I hope that's right D - please call me out of not)
Edited for spelling.
<< <i>I'd be less worried about the color variations and say the diagonal dot pattern is the giveaway. Every 1989 Fleer I have here (not just BR's) have the vertical dot pattern. >>
Mine too. At least the 30 or so FF cards I have with me at work. All have the smaller R as well.
<< <i>Donovan, from all the articles I've read that you have posted, I remember something about Fleer using multiple printing facilities in 89. I've opened boxes that are lighter/darker than other boxes and never thought much of it. >>
Yes more than one printer. I've assumed the color variations were from (whatever) running low or just changed.
But the different printers I assume had different plates made, I assume that's why the different Black Box varaitions and such. But never seen one with a bigger R and the dot pattern different, or the Orange stripe colors inverted.
This one also just looks off I guess. Pics kinda blurred. Gray is brighter.
I've held quite a few FF acrds and never seen one like this. The front gray color looks like the glossy cards. Not the sheen but the look/color.
I just might have to bust it out of it's GEM 10 holder for closer inspection. Yeah...a GEM. lol
<< <i>In the top pic, which one is the saw cut? >>
Saw cut is Loop Black Scribble Saw Cut.
Questionable card is a FF
In top pic, the saw cut is to the left.
<< <i>Donovan, from all the articles I've read that you have posted, I remember something about Fleer using multiple printing facilities in 89. I've opened boxes that are lighter/darker than other boxes and never thought much of it. >>
As I was reading the thread before I got to this I remembered seeing this too. I wouldn'y be too worried, but then again I have no investment here either.
Kinda hoping it's counterfeit. A whole new chapter.....
Cropping differences
card on right is the suspect - Look at the dirt triangle
card on left is suspect. sleeve touching edge
<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>
Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>
Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day. >>
Are you refering to the Whiteouts and saw cuts being altered from other versions or the actual FF being printed by a counterfitter.
If the latter, please elaborate. I'm only aware of the 1989 Donruss Griffey being counterfitted.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's got to be real, no one would waste the time or money to duplicate that stuff. It's worthless anyway . . . >>
Not sure if you're joking, but the rick face card was definitely counterfeited back in the day. >>
Are you refering to the Whiteouts and saw cuts being altered from other versions or the actual FF being printed by a counterfitter.
If the latter, please elaborate. I'm only aware of the 1989 Donruss Griffey being counterfitted. >>
Hmm, I remember hearing back in 1989 that the FF card had been counterfeited. I thought I also remembered reading it but ........if you are not aware of it that certainly makes me skeptical. I tried to do some googling but most searches led back to your page. lol.
What do you mean most searches? Not all? I have some work to do.....
What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with.
<< <i>Not sure about any fakes, but looking at the two cards you have pictured in regards to the "dirt triangle" and "shirt touching" card, I would say that both cards would most likely be real since unless someone had access to the original photo, it would be impossible for them to counterfeit a card that is cropped that way.
What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with. >>
I agree with this guy....
I was trying to figure out a way to type that without out making it sound like I am a retard.
What I'm selling
Building Sets, Collecting Texas Rangers, and Texas Tech Red Raiders
so it wouldn't surprise me if it was counterfeited.
Allen and his collecting friend sent this to me. The scan actually draws out the differences. In hand, they aren't as blatant.
Or Regional Canadian Baseball Issues?
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<< <i>Not sure about any fakes, but looking at the two cards you have pictured in regards to the "dirt triangle" and "shirt touching" card, I would say that both cards would most likely be real since unless someone had access to the original photo, it would be impossible for them to counterfeit a card that is cropped that way.
What I mean is the one card has a smaller dirt triangle but has more of the sleeve showing, while the other has a larger dirt triangle and less sleeve. If we are to assume Card A is real, there would be no way for someone to create a fake with that detail from a photo that did not appear on the regular card to begin with. >>
If the top card is real (Card A) --- than the back card (Card
All the faker would need is an original card image and go from there
Now days we have electronic densitometers that read color bars/ keys and automatically adjust ink to keep as consistant as possible yet still never perfectly the same on every impression. Otherwise it was "printers eye" with naked eye or loupe or comparing every so many impressions and then make adjustments to keep the same. Especially if there was 2 different print houses used there would be the possibility of two different color variations. I've seen areas using spot color look different from one printer to another. (not good) The angle of the halftone dot is from screening the dots to avoid a moire pattern. Black is traditionally 45 degrees.
Here is a spot my students and i refer to.
halftone screening
Got rid of my dark room at school to make more lab space. Now i have RIP systems and Platemakers that make plates like a "printer". those dots can be set to hafltone angles but if not specific it uses a stochastic or random dot like a lot of newer ink jet printers. those do not look so horizontal like your one ripken sample. that seems weird to me.
the 1991 fleer set is ridled with cropping variations because of different printers used. Anyone recall any other cropping variations in the 89 fleer set other then this one pointed out? I haven't. And most of us as error collectors are trained to look for that. Although we probably raced through packs just looking for RIpken or Johnson Marlboro! What cards are next to Ripken on the uncut sheet? Might have to dig through commons to compare some of those.
I better finish up my grad school paper so i can go home and start comparing....
The cards immediately around Ripken on the sheet are C. Sabo, A Thomas, P Smith, E. Murray, E. Davis, Al Hall, Jim Trabler, F. Williams.
My buddy looked at all his FF, as well as some other cards and didn't turn up anything. I still have yet to finish, but so far all the same size R.
I PM'd a guy who has a few 89 F Sabos he could check.
Interesting subject... sure hope it's just print-quality differences and not a fake(s.)
I've opened my shared of '89 Fleer myself, and can testify to seeing a fairly wide range of color differences & SIZE differences.... but never get it much thought.
ALWAYS Looking for Chris Sabo cards!
Hey Donovan...
Thought it was wierd that the haftone pattern for black was not at a 45 degree angle. It should look diamond like not box like or nice vertical and horizontal rows. Called my old boss and he said not that rare really if high quality is not priority or if not on coated stock. Not everyone follows the rules and sometimes people do it differently depending on preference or on how they know their equipment produces. Ok then. So i would be interested to take a good look with a loupe at that fake.
Speaking of fake the B&W test fake card is funny to look at under a loupe. definitely a mess!
DR, does the black dots on the accused ripken look pretty uniform or more splattery like the fake B&W card?
So i was looking at the 3 different black scribble variations since i had the loupe out. Kind of funny that the scribble marking itself is exactly the same on all 3. It is not that someone took a deletion pen and did 3 different scribbles on 3 different plates.Or maybe a pinhole blackout pen on a negative? Some sort of darkroom overlay to the negative then new plates where made? Lite loop/ No F has a white background change with no FF words then the scribble. the Loop scribble and the F scribble look like the "overlay", or whatever, was just positioned differently over the words. wierd.
(Jon is the other half of br.com.) He makes all the words appear on the site and does those elaborate drawings you see above. I'm more of a Crayon guy myself.
card B has a "wider shot" than card B so it cant be a "copy" of that....."copies" can only have the same or smaller borders...
<< <i>donovan, looks like different printing press printed at a different time, but not necessarily counterfeit....
card B has a "wider shot" than card B so it cant be a "copy" of that....."copies" can only have the same or smaller borders... >>
Scott, on the Thomas counterfeit I posted, the back image is cropped smaller as would be expected, the front image doesn't have to be, however, because the border is white and makes copying easier.
In the case of the Ripkens, Card B appears cropped tighter than Card A, as if it is the copy of the original image.
If anyone finds any '89 Fleer like the card in question, please let me know. Unsure if I need to now find all 'B' versions. lol
Card is shorter. Orioles logo bat/feet larger.
All 4 edges have a 'lip' so to speak. I assume this was done from cutting too slowly.
The FF knob especially, is dull. Not as sharp contrast.
I'm sending to a friend to scan.
Looked thru the 50 or so FF cards I have. All same size R. Went thru a few hundred commons and nothing.
The card with the white on the knob....is fake. Someone peeled away the knob to try and create a version.
Out of slab pics....
Short Card in question
Card on right in question
Card on top in question
Card on right in question
Card on right in question
Card on top in question
<< <i>My bet ($1.00) is that "Card on Right" is a fake >>
I'm thinking that too. Especially after cracking it out.
If it is fake I wonder if it would get past graders.
I mean, who looks for counterfeit '89 Fleer? Likely they just look for altered versions (ie Whiteout)
(Now what was that company that said they would pay $1500 if they slabbed a counterfeit...
Possible theories-
Counterfeit-
Fleer/Canadian test run (Anyone have a 1990 Fleer Canadian to compare dots with?)-
From second printer (Although unlikely, IMO, as I nor my FF buddies have any Large R Ripkens-
It's NSA
Funny how the beginning states that they are a "card manufacturer as well as card graders".
Send it in.....collect that $1,500. Would love to see the drama that could develop
But obviously that's not based on fact.
I just examined this card. Very strange. IF it is counterfeit - it is one of the best. I've never seen fake FF cards before (besides the 'Test Run B/W' cards).
Orioles logo: It is clearer, brighter, crisper than the real card. The real FF cards look fake in comparison. The 'registered trademark' R logo is larger on the card in question.
On the back: Text on the bottom is smaller/clearer than the real cards. Back overall is clearer - better color/clarity. The MLB logo is slightly different too. Slightly different font size within the logo.
Card stock is slightly thinner. Nothing like the B/W 'Test Run' card. Similar to an OPC card from the 80s. Slightly thinner than a regular Fleer from 1989.
I've seen fake '86 Jordans, '79 Gretzkys, '68 Ryans, etc - and this one stumps me.
Most counterfeits are copies of the actual card, that is why key tells are the trademark logos. When it is a copy, the really fine detail becomes blurry.
This card has differences (ie, bat+feet size on the Oriole, cropping) that would require the faker to actually create a brand new image on a plate. Even creating the highest quality copy of a card (which is what counterfeiters do) would not change the proportions of the bird in the logo or the location of the trademark info.
I say it's real and just printed at a different Fleer facility with a different (but similar) plate.
Counterfeit Jordan
Unless the FF really is rare and the diagonal is really real and all the horizontal, including my banner is fake.
I think in the future I'll inspect '89 Fleer more closely. I recall seeing off color and 'different' cards in my busts but never paid them any mind.
Just odd that all my versions are the same (R) etc. Same for my buddy. It's possible, but odd. I just sent out 10+ emails to FF collectors and I'll see what they have.
Anyone have a 1990 Fleer American and 1990 Fleer Canadian they can get a large scan of? To compare print patterns.
<< <i>Well....there is ONE !
Haha touche.
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