I can't tell you what's trimmed or not, but I will state I bought a bgs 9.5 card from this seller and PSA graded it (got a 9, but going back after I crack it). Perhaps he's just very good at trimming?
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
I don't want to accuse the seller. But the borders on this card do look a little too big to have come from a traditional pack. And the card's "pristine" sharpness tells me it was cut from a blank back sheet. Personally, I am OK with that as long as it is disclosed.
I would neg the seller specifically for this idiot line he puts in:
FEEDBACK IS LEFT ONCE IT HAS BEEN RECEIVED AND DELIVERY OF ITEM CONFIRMED. WHEN YOUR ITEM ARRIVES PLEASE POST FEEDBACK SO WE KNOW YOU RECEIVED IT. IF YOU CANNOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS PLEASE DO NOT BID.
This is the kind of nonsense that led to ebay blocking sellers from leaving feedback in the first place. Reading between the lines, "if you neg me, I will neg you back"
<< <i> I don't want to accuse the seller. But the borders on this card do look a little too big to have come from a traditional pack. And the card's "pristine" sharpness tells me it was cut from a blank back sheet. Personally, I am OK with that as long as it is disclosed. >>
Many if not all of those cards were bought by the seller already graded under a different id. He probably has no idea where they came from.
That's why this fact should be included on the flip - so no matter how many times it changes hands, the facts about the card's origin are always on display.
Andy Tuttle (Consignmints) does have a brother that purchases all his sheets for him prior to be cut, and sent out to BGS. His brother lives in Canada. I am not sure that this is his brother selling these cards, but it makes you wonder.
Are there some printing defects in the football that says NFC All-Pro QB (near the red end and near the yellow end), or do all 1979 Topps football cards have that?
<< <i>Are there some printing defects in the football that says NFC All-Pro QB (near the red end and near the yellow end), or do all 1979 Topps football cards have that? >>
All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain
<< <i>All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain >>
<< <i>Are there some printing defects in the football that says NFC All-Pro QB (near the red end and near the yellow end), or do all 1979 Topps football cards have that? >>
All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain >>
Simulated football grain kind of reminds me of Emmitt's afro these days.
Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Just because they say they grade sheet cut doesnt mean they are not hiding them. You dont know if you have a GEM 10 1986 Fleer Jordan right out of the pack or right from the sheet, They hid them with the natural cards.
<< <i>Just because they say they grade sheet cut doesnt mean they are not hiding them. You dont know if you have a GEM 10 1986 Fleer right out of the pack or right from the sheet, They hid them with the natural cards. >>
Along those lines, if you happen to have a PSA 10 of anyone, you have no guarantee that your card was EVER in a pack or distributed through "normal" processes or that it's a so-called "natural" card. It could have easily walked out the back or front door of the original distribution plant and never have seen the light of day since. Does that make it any less of a 10 then the one that was pulled from a pack through the normal distribution outlets? No it doesn't. As a general rule, if one has an aversion to sheet cut cards, they shouldn't buy cards that are slabbed from a company that freely admits it, if they have the intent of getting it into a PSA holder at a subsequent date.
Also, if your 10 is in any of the company's holders, then in reality you have no real guarantee that it isn't trimmed or tampered with. Some of the services are pretty good, but they are not infallible as has been shown in example after example with each company.
<< <i>Just because they say they grade sheet cut doesnt mean they are not hiding them. You dont know if you have a GEM 10 1986 Fleer right out of the pack or right from the sheet, They hid them with the natural cards. >>
Along those lines, if you happen to have a PSA 10 of anyone, you have no guarantee that your card was EVER in a pack or distributed through "normal" processes or that it's a so-called "natural" card. It could have easily walked out the back or front door of the original distribution plant and never have seen the light of day since. Does that make it any less of a 10 then the one that was pulled from a pack through the normal distribution outlets? No it doesn't. As a general rule, if one has an aversion to sheet cut cards, they shouldn't buy cards that are slabbed from a company that freely admits it with the intent of getting it into a PSA holder.
Also, if your 10 is in any of the company's holders, then in reality you have no real guarantee that it isn't trimmed or tampered with. Some of the services are pretty good, but they are not infallible as has been shown in example after example with each company. >>
Ah... finally the voice of reason. I agree, Mike.
Only a naive person would continue to believe trimming is just a Beckett problem. 2 of the biggest trimmers in the hobby, that have their cards graded, don't use Beckett. I know that for sure, because they have told me such.
PSA, BGS, and SGC ALL have/had problems that could be dragged out into this discussion, but some folks who are pro PSA only want to bash Beckett every chance they get on here, just like the SGC guys do to PSA on their pro SGC sites.. Both sides get old after hearing it for a while. Overall, the big 3 grading companies provide very good services(PSA, BGS & SGC), and none of them are free of problems, but ALL 3 are very respectable grading companies. All 3 companies have strong and weaks points. I have nice cards slabbed by all 3 in my collection, and it will continue that way.
Beckett has always acknowledged that they grade cards recently cut from sheets.
That's not the problem, the problem is folks looking to cross Beckett cards to PSA or SGC may end up with the cards being thrown back in their face ...
OK, but then where is the line or guarantee for a card that was stretched and then cut down to regular size. Or even a natural card that was already oversized and then cut down with this ever so hard cutting process. Either way if they really know how to tell. Just by saying "oh yeah we grade cut cards" to me sounds like an easy excuse for ignorance and no guarantee.
<< <i> Only a naive person would continue to believe trimming is just a Beckett problem. 2 of the biggest trimmers in the hobby, that have their cards graded, don't use Beckett. I know that for sure, because they have told me such. >>
If you are going to come out with that statement, do the hobby world a favor and actually say who they are so people can avoid buying from them.
"Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike "
Could you maybe explain more so i can understand how this makes them worthy of this grade/value? What makes it so hard......
I appreciate the fact that PSA tries to distinguish between sheet cuts and will not slab them if suspected. I also appreciate the fact that BGS will slab sheet cuts, but as others have said, I don't appreciate that they fail to disclose that state on the flips.
I suspect, when it is all boiled down, modern cutting/trimming technologies make it very difficult to discern, and neither company can rightfully spot a sheet cut or trimmed card with any kind of consistency. As such, having PSA reject them and BGS slab them with notation is nearly futile.
I'd say with almost certainty that the card brought to question by the OP is a sheet cut card. As a player collector, I enjoy having access to a company that will slab and label "oddball" errors...i.e. wrong backs, blank fronts/backs, etc.
In the end, there is a reason that people like Kevin Burge have moved from BGS slabs to PSA slabs in recent months...and will surely one day move back to BGS. They play the system when it shows signs of weakness.
<< <i>Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike >>
Here's what I've never understood, and I hope that one day someone will explain it to me:
If you're going to grade sheet cuts, then why wouldn't you grade 'trimmed' cards that measure up? And how can you tell the difference between a card that's been cut from a sheet, and a card that's been carefully rotatrimmed (or otherwise worked on) on all four edges?
If you're going to grade sheet cuts, then why wouldn't you grade 'trimmed' cards that measure up?
That is a good question.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
<< <i>Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike >>
Here's what I've never understood, and I hope that one day someone will explain it to me:
If you're going to grade sheet cuts, then why wouldn't you grade 'trimmed' cards that measure up? And how can you tell the difference between a card that's been cut from a sheet, and a card that's been carefully rotatrimmed (or otherwise worked on) on all four edges? >>
This is what google showed via the urban dictionary:
southy: A phantasmagorical individual of extreme nature, A most estimable and meritorious mortal incomparable to any other personnel and or creature.
I don't understand many of those words, but I'm going to have to say I'm not a southy. More of a commoner. The "my boy's wicked smart" line is from one of my favorite movie scenes of all-time, that being the "bah" scene in "Good Will Hunting".
I agree with Boo's thoughts on the subject. Plus, he is a smart dude. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the definition for "southy" in the urban dictionay. The fact that he carries a 200+ average at the local lanes just makes him an intriguing cat to me. He's not flawless though, he appears to prefer modern over vintage.
Could you maybe explain more so i can understand how this makes them worthy of this grade/value? What makes it so hard...... >>
I can explain how they are worthy of the grade, and that is simply that they meet the defined criteria that Beckett has assigned to a particular grade. However, I cannot easily explain how this makes them worthy of "this value". I assume it is just the regular laws of supply and demand, coupled with some people's desire to own the finest or near finest of a particular item. It boils down to simply this, they are worth what someone will pay for them, and a lot of time people choose to pay high prices for a sportscard. Personally, it's not my thing to pay a high premium for 10's of any card, when to my naked eye in most cases, a 9 and sometimes an 8 looks and displays pretty much the same, and on a different day with a different grader (and sometimes the same grader) would get a 10. However, I don't pass judgement on those that do, people can pay what they want to pay and if I'm not asked, then it's really not any of my business. I know a lot of people outside of the "collector's market", that think that I am absolutely nuts for routinely spending three and four figures on a piece of cardboard with a picture and another grown man's signature on it, however, it is an enjoyable hobby for me and a place where I choose to put my money that I earned. So as an example, if someone else wants to pay $500.00 or more for a 10, that would otherwise sell for under a $1.00 if it wasn't in a slab, I don't have a problem with that.
As to what makes it hard, I've never personally tried cutting a card from a sheet, so I can't comment on that. However, I'd be willing to venture that if you made a capital investment of a size that I don't know, that you could buy the proper equipment to make it very precise and easy. If you didn't have access to that equipment or to someone that did, then it would probably be relatively difficult.
Hope this helps address your questions that you posed to me,
handyman
Posts: 5,244 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
I really don't have a problem that they grade cards like this, I just wish they would indicate on the flip that is was sheet-cut, box-cut or whatever.
The edges are so sharp they'll cut your eyes if you stare too long......
FEEDBACK IS LEFT ONCE IT HAS BEEN RECEIVED AND DELIVERY OF ITEM CONFIRMED. WHEN YOUR ITEM ARRIVES PLEASE POST FEEDBACK SO WE KNOW YOU RECEIVED IT. IF YOU CANNOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS PLEASE DO NOT BID.
This is the kind of nonsense that led to ebay blocking sellers from leaving feedback in the first place. Reading between the lines, "if you neg me, I will neg you back"
<< <i> I don't want to accuse the seller. But the borders on this card do look a little too big to have come from a traditional pack. And the card's "pristine" sharpness tells me it was cut from a blank back sheet. Personally, I am OK with that as long as it is disclosed. >>
Many if not all of those cards were bought by the seller already graded under a different id. He probably has no idea where they came from.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
And if someone wants to buy that card thinking it came from a pack that is fine by me.
<< <i>Are there some printing defects in the football that says NFC All-Pro QB (near the red end and near the yellow end), or do all 1979 Topps football cards have that? >>
All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain >>
Thanks Matt.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>Are there some printing defects in the football that says NFC All-Pro QB (near the red end and near the yellow end), or do all 1979 Topps football cards have that? >>
All of them have that. There are a few different colors used for the footballs and the black you see is supposed to simulate the football grain >>
Simulated football grain kind of reminds me of Emmitt's afro these days.
<< <i>Not what I'm saying.
And if someone wants to buy that card thinking it came from a pack that is fine by me. >>
Sorry hammered, my statements were not in reference to you, but the OP
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike
<< <i>Just because they say they grade sheet cut doesnt mean they are not hiding them. You dont know if you have a GEM 10 1986 Fleer right out of the pack or right from the sheet, They hid them with the natural cards. >>
Along those lines, if you happen to have a PSA 10 of anyone, you have no guarantee that your card was EVER in a pack or distributed through "normal" processes or that it's a so-called "natural" card. It could have easily walked out the back or front door of the original distribution plant and never have seen the light of day since. Does that make it any less of a 10 then the one that was pulled from a pack through the normal distribution outlets? No it doesn't. As a general rule, if one has an aversion to sheet cut cards, they shouldn't buy cards that are slabbed from a company that freely admits it, if they have the intent of getting it into a PSA holder at a subsequent date.
Also, if your 10 is in any of the company's holders, then in reality you have no real guarantee that it isn't trimmed or tampered with. Some of the services are pretty good, but they are not infallible as has been shown in example after example with each company.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because they say they grade sheet cut doesnt mean they are not hiding them. You dont know if you have a GEM 10 1986 Fleer right out of the pack or right from the sheet, They hid them with the natural cards. >>
Along those lines, if you happen to have a PSA 10 of anyone, you have no guarantee that your card was EVER in a pack or distributed through "normal" processes or that it's a so-called "natural" card. It could have easily walked out the back or front door of the original distribution plant and never have seen the light of day since. Does that make it any less of a 10 then the one that was pulled from a pack through the normal distribution outlets? No it doesn't. As a general rule, if one has an aversion to sheet cut cards, they shouldn't buy cards that are slabbed from a company that freely admits it with the intent of getting it into a PSA holder.
Also, if your 10 is in any of the company's holders, then in reality you have no real guarantee that it isn't trimmed or tampered with. Some of the services are pretty good, but they are not infallible as has been shown in example after example with each company. >>
Ah... finally the voice of reason. I agree, Mike.
Only a naive person would continue to believe trimming is just a Beckett problem. 2 of the biggest trimmers in the hobby, that have their cards graded, don't use Beckett. I know that for sure, because they have told me such.
PSA, BGS, and SGC ALL have/had problems that could be dragged out into this discussion, but some folks who are pro PSA only want to bash Beckett every chance they get on here, just like the SGC guys do to PSA on their pro SGC sites.. Both sides get old after hearing it for a while. Overall, the big 3 grading companies provide very good services(PSA, BGS & SGC), and none of them are free of problems, but ALL 3 are very respectable grading companies. All 3 companies have strong and weaks points. I have nice cards slabbed by all 3 in my collection, and it will continue that way.
Beckett has always acknowledged that they grade cards recently cut from sheets.
That's not the problem, the problem is
folks looking to cross Beckett cards to PSA or SGC may end up with the cards being thrown back in their face ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>
Only a naive person would continue to believe trimming is just a Beckett problem. 2 of the biggest trimmers in the hobby, that have their cards graded, don't use Beckett. I know that for sure, because they have told me such.
>>
If you are going to come out with that statement, do the hobby world a favor and actually say who they are so people can avoid buying from them.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike "
Could you maybe explain more so i can understand how this makes them worthy of this grade/value?
What makes it so hard......
Steve
I suspect, when it is all boiled down, modern cutting/trimming technologies make it very difficult to discern, and neither company can rightfully spot a sheet cut or trimmed card with any kind of consistency. As such, having PSA reject them and BGS slab them with notation is nearly futile.
I'd say with almost certainty that the card brought to question by the OP is a sheet cut card. As a player collector, I enjoy having access to a company that will slab and label "oddball" errors...i.e. wrong backs, blank fronts/backs, etc.
In the end, there is a reason that people like Kevin Burge have moved from BGS slabs to PSA slabs in recent months...and will surely one day move back to BGS. They play the system when it shows signs of weakness.
<< <i>Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike >>
Here's what I've never understood, and I hope that one day someone will explain it to me:
If you're going to grade sheet cuts, then why wouldn't you grade 'trimmed' cards that measure up? And how can you tell the difference between a card that's been cut from a sheet, and a card that's been carefully rotatrimmed (or otherwise worked on) on all four edges?
That is a good question.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
they really or can they really?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Just an FYI, I was at Beckett about 10 days ago, and they fully acknowledge that they grade sheet cuts. They don't try to hide it. They'll talk to you freely about it. They even talked about the precision it took for people that do the sheet cuts, to be able to make them to where they would grade a 9.5 or 10 and how "hard" that was.
Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I would prefer that it be differentiated on the flip, and according to the Beckett graders (or at least the ones at the seminar). they CAN tell the difference so it would be nice if they would differentiate them IMO.
Mike >>
Here's what I've never understood, and I hope that one day someone will explain it to me:
If you're going to grade sheet cuts, then why wouldn't you grade 'trimmed' cards that measure up? And how can you tell the difference between a card that's been cut from a sheet, and a card that's been carefully rotatrimmed (or otherwise worked on) on all four edges? >>
B-I-N-G-O. My boy's wicked smart.
<< <i>
B-I-N-G-O. My boy's wicked smart. >>
Are you a Southy?
<< <i>
<< <i>
B-I-N-G-O. My boy's wicked smart. >>
Are you a Southy? >>
This is what google showed via the urban dictionary:
southy: A phantasmagorical individual of extreme nature, A most estimable and meritorious mortal incomparable to any other personnel and or creature.
I don't understand many of those words, but I'm going to have to say I'm not a southy. More of a commoner. The "my boy's wicked smart" line is from one of my favorite movie scenes of all-time, that being the "bah" scene in "Good Will Hunting".
I agree with Boo's thoughts on the subject. Plus, he is a smart dude. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the definition for "southy" in the urban dictionay. The fact that he carries a 200+ average at the local lanes just makes him an intriguing cat to me. He's not flawless though, he appears to prefer modern over vintage.
edit...like Will Hunting
<< <i>I think that's what he meant...a South Boston resident.
edit...like Will Hunting >>
Doh! Well, I'm not one of those either. But I am going to get to Fenway Park one day if it's the last thing I do.
<< <i>
Could you maybe explain more so i can understand how this makes them worthy of this grade/value?
What makes it so hard...... >>
I can explain how they are worthy of the grade, and that is simply that they meet the defined criteria that Beckett has assigned to a particular grade. However, I cannot easily explain how this makes them worthy of "this value". I assume it is just the regular laws of supply and demand, coupled with some people's desire to own the finest or near finest of a particular item. It boils down to simply this, they are worth what someone will pay for them, and a lot of time people choose to pay high prices for a sportscard. Personally, it's not my thing to pay a high premium for 10's of any card, when to my naked eye in most cases, a 9 and sometimes an 8 looks and displays pretty much the same, and on a different day with a different grader (and sometimes the same grader) would get a 10. However, I don't pass judgement on those that do, people can pay what they want to pay and if I'm not asked, then it's really not any of my business. I know a lot of people outside of the "collector's market", that think that I am absolutely nuts for routinely spending three and four figures on a piece of cardboard with a picture and another grown man's signature on it, however, it is an enjoyable hobby for me and a place where I choose to put my money that I earned. So as an example, if someone else wants to pay $500.00 or more for a 10, that would otherwise sell for under a $1.00 if it wasn't in a slab, I don't have a problem with that.
As to what makes it hard, I've never personally tried cutting a card from a sheet, so I can't comment on that. However, I'd be willing to venture that if you made a capital investment of a size that I don't know, that you could buy the proper equipment to make it very precise and easy. If you didn't have access to that equipment or to someone that did, then it would probably be relatively difficult.
Hope this helps address your questions that you posed to me,
Take care,
Mike