Is pre-Cupro silver coinage hoarded in other countries?

Weiss

There seems to be a fair amount of junk Canadian silver available. But does anyone know if their silver coinage is hoarded/traded (large bags, rolls, etc) the same way in say England or Germany the way it is in the US?

PerryHall

I would be very surprised if it wasn't hoarded in other countries considering most countries have had bad experiences with paper money and banks.

Weiss

Answered my own question, in part at least. UK eBay has several lots of "pre-47" and "pre-20" circulated coins for sale. They even identify them as "scrap" and sell them by multiples of face value like we do here in the US.

Similar to our own "pre-65" and 40% halves, their coins made prior to 1920 are sterling (92.5% pure), and the coins made prior to 1947 are 50% (.500 fine).

cladking

There's not nearly the kind of quantity as there is with US coin. They were
made in smaller numbers and generally have had more years to be destroyed
or used up. Many of the foreign governments made an effort to remove the
silver right from the beginning and that has been melted long ago.

Probably something close to half the silver in coin form is in US coin. This doesn't
include collectible coins which wouldn't dramatically change this.

secondrepublic

I can tell you about the experience of Poland. The only circulating silver was pre-World War II. That coinage was .750 fine. There are definitely hoards of it, but the coins will all have numismatic value above melt.

After WWII, under communist times the coinage was all aluminum or cupro, except for a couple of 1970s silver commemoratives that technically got released into circulation in small quantities with a relatively high denomination (they were pulled out by people immediately).

People in Poland are more likely to have silver in the form of old flatware sets and jewelry. Poland is still a major producer of silver, usually the #5 or #6 producer worldwide. They produce slightly more annually than the U.S. There is a lot of silver in the hands of people there.

PerryHall

This is a difficult question to answer since people with hoards of precious metal coins keep it a very closely guarded secret for obvious reasons.

Weiss

<< <i>This is a difficult question to answer since people with hoards of precious metal coins keep it a very closely guarded secret for obvious reasons. >>



I guess I might have worded the question wrong. By "hoard" in the title of my post, I really meant "buy/sell/stash/trade" like we do here in the US. Holding pre-cupro coinage as a way to own silver instead of just in the form of bullion bars. Since virtually all countries had silver and gold coinage at one time, do other countries buy/sell/trade bags of "junk" coins from their countries' past the same way we do.

PerryHall

When bulk silver coins trade hands in Europe, are they subject to a VAT? If so, most trades would be between private individuals on a cash basis to avoid the VAT. Just a thought.

JohnTheJute

<< <i>When bulk silver coins trade hands in Europe, are they subject to a VAT? >>

The rules in England, as I understand them, are that if a dealer buys and sells a secondhand silver coin (but not a silver bar) then Value-Added Tax is assessed only on the dealer's profit. This is the Value the dealer is held to have Added to the coin by taking into stock. As a result, most of the price of secondhand bullion silver coins is exempt from tax.

As to the existence of pre-1920 sterling silver coins, there is some certainly, but not remotely as much as there is in the US. Why is that? Well, for more than 100 years, British silver coinage had been a token coinage--a silver shilling contained less than a shilling's worth of silver. Indeed the postwar rise in the price of silver was one of the reasons given for abandoning the sterling standard--a 925 fine shilling would at last require more than a shilling's worth of silver.

My speculation is that silver token coins were not seen as being real money in the way that gold sovereigns were. Gold sovereigns were still reasonably easily available, so it was they that were kept as rainy day money.

In 1965, US citizens did not have the option of keeping gold.

Later,

John

Weiss

Interesting perspective, John. Thanks!

1jester

<< <i>I can tell you about the experience of Poland. The only circulating silver was pre-World War II. That coinage was .750 fine. There are definitely hoards of it, but the coins will all have numismatic value above melt.

After WWII, under communist times the coinage was all aluminum or cupro, except for a couple of 1970s silver commemoratives that technically got released into circulation in small quantities with a relatively high denomination (they were pulled out by people immediately).

People in Poland are more likely to have silver in the form of old flatware sets and jewelry. Poland is still a major producer of silver, usually the #5 or #6 producer worldwide. They produce slightly more annually than the U.S. There is a lot of silver in the hands of people there. >>



There is a strong following for "junk" silver coins, with local internet sales usually showing a premium of 10-20% over melt for 2nd Republic silver. However, this premium is smaller than for normal "bullion" coins or bars. But as John mentions, lots of certain varieties (for example, the ship coins) go for way over melt, even in very circulated condition. I have no idea how many of these coins exist, as they generally don't come up for sale in quantities of more than a few ounces. It's not like you can go buy $1000 bags of the stuff.

KGHM, Poland's copper and silver miner and producer, offers refined silver in pellet form for sale but only in minimum quantities of $50,000.