Grading Standards for Gold Coins: PCGS vs. NGC
Halfhunter06
Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
Ive heard many people say PCGS 58 is equal to NGC 61. Has anyone in thier experiences seen much proof of this? Is NGC just as good with gold as our PCGS?
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My gold coins are all in PCGS slabs, and I'd like to keep it that way.
In most people's mind, having an AU58 in a PCGS, might be better than having an over graded MS61 in an NGC slab.
Both companies over grade coins, that is a fact, and I have always thought PCGS was the best, mostly because that is what some of the older guys told me, really they are both good grading companies, and you don't see any G4's being graded as a MS65, like other nameless "XYZ" self slabbed graders.
With the little experience I have, I can't say that one company is superior over the other, in any field of grading, but I would like to see the responses to this thread
<< <i>I personally think that NGC holders, make gold look disgusting! That white background... EWWW! JUST NASTY!
My gold coins are all in PCGS slabs, and I'd like to keep it that way.
In most people's mind, having an AU58 in a PCGS, might be better than having an over graded MS61 in an NGC slab.
Both companies over grade coins, that is a fact, and I have always thought PCGS was the best, mostly because that is what some of the older guys told me, really they are both good grading companies, and you don't see any G4's being graded as a MS65, like other nameless "XYZ" self slabbed graders.
With the little experience I have, I can't say that one company is superior over the other, in any field of grading, but I would like to see the responses to this thread
Here is my experience, for what it's worth. Sorry I don't have any pics yet.
1911 NGC MS64 $10 Indian --> 1911 PCGS MS62
1904 NGC MS63 $20 Liberty --> 1904 PCGS MS63
But confusing the numeric grades 58 and 61? No.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Pass the Kool Aid.
Well, in my experience too it's more than just kool-aid when it comes to AU gold coins.
Here's the results of one submission I made, one of my worst for downgrades for sure and not a single coin kept its NGC grade, but luckily there's not much of a price difference on any of these.
7525 1854 G$1 Type 1 US AU58 (was NGC MS61)
7940 1909 $2.50 US AU55 (was NGC AU58)
8513 1909 $5 US AU50 (was NGC AU58)
8514 1909-D $5 US AU55 (was NGC AU58)
8862 1909 $10 US MS60 (was NGC MS61)
9150 1909 $20 US AU55 (was NGC AU58)
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I am in the minority, but I think that NGC is more "collector oriented" by allowing PCGS coins on their Registry. It allows the collector to buy the COIN that they like, rather than forcing them to cross to their own plastic. Of course, from a profit perspective, the "PCGS ONLY" rule keeps the cash flowing in.......
This has not always been the case. Years ago I had a 1796 quarter eagle on consignment. The coin was in an NGC AU-50 holder, it was a wonderful original piece that was “all there.” Sadly I didn’t have the money at the time to take advantage of it.
Plastic can always be changed and originality can not... you decide what is more important
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Because of the "PCGS ONLY" PCGS Registry, the crossing is always NGC to PCGS. If you tried to cross a bunch of PCGS coins to NGC, it would suddenly appear that NGC is a lot tighter. Simple fact is, a lot of previously graded coins would NOT cross at the SAME service today. All of this "Kool Aid" attitude stems from the PCGS Registry rules. A coin will always be the same coin, regardless of the flavor of plastic. If a coin looks nice for the grade, buy it, if not, pass.
I am in the minority, but I think that NGC is more "collector oriented" by allowing PCGS coins on their Registry. It allows the collector to buy the COIN that they like, rather than forcing them to cross to their own plastic. Of course, from a profit perspective, the "PCGS ONLY" rule keeps the cash flowing in....... >>
Great post and finally some common sense. Totally agree.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Because of the "PCGS ONLY" PCGS Registry, the crossing is always NGC to PCGS. If you tried to cross a bunch of PCGS coins to NGC, it would suddenly appear that NGC is a lot tighter. Simple fact is, a lot of previously graded coins would NOT cross at the SAME service today. All of this "Kool Aid" attitude stems from the PCGS Registry rules. A coin will always be the same coin, regardless of the flavor of plastic. If a coin looks nice for the grade, buy it, if not, pass.
I am in the minority, but I think that NGC is more "collector oriented" by allowing PCGS coins on their Registry. It allows the collector to buy the COIN that they like, rather than forcing them to cross to their own plastic. Of course, from a profit perspective, the "PCGS ONLY" rule keeps the cash flowing in....... >>
Great post and finally some common sense. Totally agree. >>
I'll second that. Limiting a registry to only one brand of holder makes the claim "finest collection" less credible.
I only have limited experience with incuse design and the standards are a bit different, methinks. And PCGS tends to agree with me more than I agree with NGC. That's no problem, it's just a fact of grading.
<< <i>I was at Baltimore last weekend and there seemed to be 10 NGC gold slabs for every 1 PCGS..it made me believe that people submit to NGC because they grade more liberally and can make a few more bucks selling them. >>
I've asked several dealers who I know to be honest and knowledgeable about their choice to use NGC for slabbing gold. They said that PCGS too often under grades their coins and that NGC gives their coins a fair accurate grade. They also said they didn't expect gift grades but only honest accurate grades.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Some very wise posts up there ^^
<< <i>Ive heard many people say PCGS 58 is equal to NGC 61. Has anyone in thier experiences seen much proof of this? Is NGC just as good with gold as our PCGS? >>
Here is an example of an MS61 cracked out and resubmitted resulting in an AU58…
PCGS MS61 OGH to NGC AU58 Surprising grade for such a beautiful coin.
Camelot
<< <i>Here is an example of an MS61 cracked out and resubmitted resulting in an AU58…
PCGS MS61 OGH to NGC AU58 Surprising grade for such a beautiful coin. >>
Wow:
1) Lost the nice greenie(!) PCGS holder
2) Now have to look at that icky white background
3) Went from UNC to AU
You're out on strikes!
p.S. Great coin, though... regardless of holder or grade.
NGC 61 will likely equate to Pcgs58. No Kool Aid involved. Just plain ole time spent observing and confirming. Also there is a reason that dealers and auction houses have turned to one tpg verses another.... ease of submission process annndddd better grades obtained overall. If you have not observed and recognized this situation as it has developed maybe you need to drink some KooL Aid, it goes great with peanut butter and crackers.
Did not say that this is always the case because at times I have seen the opposite as exampled by another poster above. I'm speaking collectively, when looking at a sampling of 1000 or more coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is an example of an MS61 cracked out and resubmitted resulting in an AU58…
PCGS MS61 OGH to NGC AU58 Surprising grade for such a beautiful coin. >>
p.S. Great coin, though... regardless of holder or grade. >>
Shoot, That Saint looks like a 62 to me.. it's a Beauty.
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Percentage-wise there are relatively few PCGS gold registry sets compared to copper, nickel, and silver coins. So the majority of the crossing is done for the better liquidity and price that PCGS gold coins bring over NGC. This doesn't mean they you can't find a better NGC coin for every PCGS one examine. But on average, there is no question NGC is slightly looser in their standards for most gold series. Generally PCGS is thought to be the tighter grader. But a check of the pops between the two will show that this is not always the case...at least using 4-5 year old pop reports for comparisons. And things shouldn't have changed that much since. I have newer PCGS report but nothing from NGC to compare with. In incuse $5 Indian gold NGC is much tougher in 63-65 grades which I would not have guessed. NGC is also much tougher in MS65 $2-1/2 Indians but similar in the lower grades. But in $5 and $10 Liberties, NGC has graded more 64's and essentially 2X the number of 65's as PCGS (ie just like in bust halves). PCGS has also graded about half as many MS65 $10 Indians and MS65 $20 Libs. In with motto saints PCGS looks somewhat tougher in 64's and 65's yet in 66's NGC is quite a bit tougher (as of the 2003-2005 era). In fact the NGC ratio of 66 to 65 saints was 10-1 while PCGS is 4-1, and maintains that today as well. So one size doesn't fit all. In the 62 to 64 range they are usually somewhat closer to agreement. These comparisons were made with a similar amount of total coins seen. That is supported also by grades of 61-63 were a baseline is formed with similar quanities graded. It starts to diverge usually at the 64 level and higher.
The preference to PCGS is also borne out in CCE bids, dealer wholesale buys and sells (such as Heritage, Rarcoa, etc.). The biggest discrepancy is in MS65's or higher. That said, there is not a huge discrepancy between the two, but enough to be noticed. On some coins such as MS65 $5 Libs the price difference is around 10% for common dates. And based on pops it should be a lot more. It still comes down to the individual coin however such that a nice NGC MS65 $5 Lib will probably bring within 0-5% of PCGS money on a sight seen basis.
As far as the orig qustion of an NGC 61 being a PCGS AU58, it probably just doesn't matter. 61 coins as a rule look like heck and they might as well be AU's because most of them are. This is not much different than what occurs in bust and seated coins. You really don't get a full mint state gold coin until you hit the 62 or 63 range.
roadrunner
<< <i>
Well, in my experience too it's more than just kool-aid when it comes to AU gold coins.
Here's the results of one submission I made, one of my worst for downgrades for sure and not a single coin kept its NGC grade, but luckily there's not much of a price difference on any of these.
7525 1854 G$1 Type 1 US AU58 (was NGC MS61)
7940 1909 $2.50 US AU55 (was NGC AU58)
8513 1909 $5 US AU50 (was NGC AU58)
8514 1909-D $5 US AU55 (was NGC AU58)
8862 1909 $10 US MS60 (was NGC MS61)
9150 1909 $20 US AU55 (was NGC AU58) >>
Just wanted to clarify that this was just one experience I had and not at all indicative of all PCGS and NGC coins. Also wanted to clarify these were not crossovers but were submitted to PCGS raw after I had cracked them from NGC holders and let them rest in my type set album for awhile. Accordingly, it's concievable that I caused some additional wear to the coins during the period they were free, but I don't think that I did.
<< <i>I'm getting the hint that 58 is really the best deal, and 61 is something to avoid >>
I do think 58s are a great value grade if you find an accurately graded one that looks great. Especially preferable to a 61.
That said, there are lots of gold coins out there, especially in the $2.5 and $5 indian series that are not properly graded in the AU grades (in both PCGS and NGC holders). I've bought AU53 coins that looked MS and I've had AU58 coins that were barely AU50. Probably what happened with my experience above was that I was buying the grade on the holder and not the coin and I ended up buying the cheapest coin which in turn ended up being overgraded or low end coins for the grade. I guess the same could have happened if I started buying low priced PCGS AU58s as well. I think I've now learned enough to know that you can't 100% rely on the third party graders if your buying AU coins in those series, still need to learn to grade them yourself or at least look at several coins before choosing the one to buy.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I'm getting the hint that 58 is really the best deal, and 61 is something to avoid >>
I don't want to sound obtrusive, but the hint I would give is in my sigline and it's not a home or a sandwich.
<< <i>My experience of buying, viewing, comparing, cracking, resubmitting raw to both tpg's, submitting in slabs to both tpg's, etc. clearly has me convinced that overall (but not on an individual basis) that;
NGC 61 will likely equate to Pcgs58. No Kool Aid involved. Just plain ole time spent observing and confirming. Also there is a reason that dealers and auction houses have turned to one tpg verses another.... ease of submission process annndddd better grades obtained overall. If you have not observed and recognized this situation as it has developed maybe you need to drink some KooL Aid, it goes great with peanut butter and crackers.
Did not say that this is always the case because at times I have seen the opposite as exampled by another poster above. I'm speaking collectively, when looking at a sampling of 1000 or more coins. >>
Well stated - my experience with Liberty series gold is similar. I am convinced based on my own observations that NGC's gold grading is looser on average, especially from AU to through low mint state. I purchase PCGS graded gold almost exclusively with only an occasional coin in an NGC holder. Perhaps PCGS is conservative to the point of undergrading while NGC is consistently following its own but slightly different standard.
edit for typos
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
For a coin where a one grade point increase can mean several thousands of dollars this seems to support the theory proposed here that some folks are submitting these coins to NGC because there is at least a perception of being able to get a "better" grade. Of course, it could just also just be a coincidence and simply that I haven't run across the PCGS examples that may be out there in my hunt.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
roadrunner