Merc guys: How can a non-FB get an MS69???

DMWJR

I don't know much about merc's, but I really don't understand how a 1939 can grade MS69 without having full bands. Shouldn't an MS69 absolutely have a full strike????? Wouldn't weakness in the bands be evidence of a LACK of full strike????

There is a 1939 in the pop reports that is an MS69 and does not have full bands. Truthfully, I don't know how you get an MS68 without having full bands, but there seem to be so many graded, I feel stupid asking. Am I just too strict? I can't believe that my opinion would be more strict than PCGS. That goes contrary to every submission I have ever made. I know an "old school" dealer/collector who wouldn't dare grade anything without FB higher than a 65.

Doug

"MERC's= I drive 'em, but don't collect 'em."

Coin Finder

I have seen this coin. It is in an older PCGS holder before they added the designation.

FB all the way baby!!!

Thanks
Tbig

python1

I agree, no band, no 69, if I owned that coin, I would resubmit it for designation anywy.

solid

Can't speak to that coin, but it is my opinion that with all the series that have strike designations; FB, FS, FH, FBL, that none should grade higher than MS66 (or maybe MS67) without the complete strike. Per the PCGS Guide to Coin Grading, they say that MS/PR67 should be very well struck, MSPR68 slightest weakness of strike allowed, and MS/PR69 near full strike necessary.

Certainly a Mercury dime that doesn't have at least close to full-bands, or a Jefferson nickel that is not at least close to full steps could not be called "very well struck".

Fairlaneman

Doug: Cool. I Collect and also Drive Mercury's. The Daily Driver is a 65 Comet Caliente.

Solid: Almost in total agreement with you on the anything over 66 should have FB. Only dis-agree on that statement for the pre 34 issues in the series and then only a few of them which are well known for being not Fully struck. Certainly any Dime,with the exception of 1945, after 1931 should not be graded higher than MS66 if the Bands are not Full. Just My opionion. If we take this just one step further on the Fully struck issue technically any Merc after 1926 would not qualify because of the Master Die Erosion that occured sometime between 1924 and 1926 thus leaving out part of the Original Design Completely.

Take Care: Ken

Monstavet

I may be way off here, but I think I have a possible explanation...In some cases, the dies themselves do not have the full steps, full bands, full bell lines, etc. therefore they can make an absolutely problem-free strike, but there is no way they can make full bands, steps, etc. because they aren't on the die to begin with. As an example, full bell line Franklins are common in the early years of production...late 40s, early 50s. But by about 59-60, they are much harder to find. Every year they used the same dies, but then changed the dates. After ten years or so, the bell lines were almost totally gone. Then, in 61 or so, they re-engraved the bell lines onto the dies, and you start seeing lots more full bell line coins. This is what I have read, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Could it be that the same phenomenon could occur in some of the other series? For Jeffersons, could the years that have few full step examples be the years that they didn't have nice, new well-engraved dies - they just changed the dates on the previous year's dies? I may be way off here...who knows? Thus, you could still get a well-struck coin, just without the steps, etc.

TomB

You wrote exactly what I was thinking. If the detail is missing from the dies in the first place then the strike may be 100% and certain features would not show up.

kranky

I agree in concept with the theory of the detail missing from the dies, but doesn't that open a can of worms?

Since we can't see the actual dies, the decision to make an allowance for missing die detail can only be inferred from the coins. So if someone decided that MS69 1939 Merc is as good as it gets strike-wise, what do we do if a FB specimen that is just as nice DOES show up? What are we going to call that one?

It would be the true MS69, and the current one wins an irrevocable lifetime pass into Overgradedland.

DMWJR

I have to respectfully disagree with the theory of missing detail on the die. I don't think even a very late die state would yield a coin without this detail. Cracks, breaks and fills? yes. Missing detail? No way. Weak strike? It wouldn't get a 69.

I think Tbig has the answer. It HAS to have full bands. It must have been slabbed before the FB designation, like he said. When I posted the question, I didn't realize there was a time when PCGS didn't put that designation on the holder.

DeepCoin

If you read David Lange's (sp?) book on the Mercury series, he talks a great deal about the different dies and the issues with regard to poor strikes. I am not sure about a 69 w/o full bands but if one ever comes on the market I will be a strong bidder.

Fairlaneman

DeepCoin has referred you to a reference Book that a Mercury Dime Collector should have in his/her possession for sure. Mr Lange goes into some of the finer points of the Mercury Dime including striking and loss of detail from the Master Hub. In essence he states,and it is true,that the issues from 1925 thru the end of the series have progressive loss of detail on the Master Hubs from the repeated use of them. Primarily this is on the obverse hub but detail loss is also present on the reverse hub also. I have never seen where any of this detail was lost in the area of the middle band. So presumably if the striking pressure was sufficient the Middle Band would be the indicator of a Fully Struck Coin because it is directly opposite of the area of highest relief on the obverse.

Attached are a Couple of examples showing the Loss of Design. On the Obverse pay attention to the Curls on Miss Liberty. On the Reverse the Olive Branch that is Directly Right of the Middle Band and just above that shows the Detail loss that ocurred sometime between 1924 and 1926. Any Dime struck after 1926 will show this Detail Loss.

Hope this helps a little. Take Care:Ken

Edit: For Missing Words and Huge Images.

DMWJR

Ken, that was a fantastic post. The pictures did a nice job as well! That little bit and the pictures at least helps me look at the coin in a different way. I don't collect them yet, but I like them and figure I'll start one day. I'm learning, which is what I came here to do!

Doug