Gothic Florin - cleaned or dipped? Grade?

Bjorn

Hello guys,

I have been culling my collection lately and came upon this florin I bought some time ago. The reverse looks fine but the obverse seem to have some 'noise' to it - I also think I may see some straight lines in the fields, but not on the devices. Could these be die polish lines? Sorry for the poor pics - I may try more photos later. Also, what are your opinions regarding the grade of this coin (aside from the ding around 8 o'clock on the obverse)?

Hussulo

It does look like it has been dipped and probably cleaned on the obverse but hard to tell from the picture.

Regards to die polishing lines please take a look at my post at the bottom of this thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=717617&highlight_key=y&keyword1=lines

olmanjon

I have a question. I am very confused as to the terms that we throw around. If I have a coin that is dirty from say--dirt and grime(like grease) and I dip it in acetone to remove the loose stuff and then rinse it in denatured alcohol and then distilled water and let air dry--does this mean that this coin has been dipped and cleaned? Or does dipped and cleaned mean dipped in one of these other fancy products or cleaned with soap and water? I have several coins that have been cleaned to the point that you see the hairline scratches on them. To me this means that they have been cleaned and is detrimental to the coin. Am I right here or am I wrong in my conclusions? Thanks for any info on this perplexing question.
Olmanjon

lordmarcovan

Olmanjon- "dipped" usually means dipped in a chemical solution for cleaning. These solutions contain various acids which etch the metal of the coin ever so slightly, which is what makes it an issue if the coin becomes "overdipped" and dull looking- this kind of "dip" cannot be reversed. (Though when performed carefully and conservatively, it can be a good way to rid a coin of unsightly toning.)

A simple dip in acetone, or distilled water, or something which will not affect the metal surface of the coin, can't usually be considered "cleaning" in the negative, numismatic sense of the word. (Even though it IS technically cleaning, in the sense of removing surface grime).

You've got "good" and "bad" cleaning. "Good" cleaning really doesn't count as such, numismatically speaking. "Bad" cleaning like dipping is not necessarily all bad, just dangerous, because it affects the metal of the coin, as I mentioned. (Just as abrasive methods do.)

Did this help, or just confuse you more?

As to the coin in the OP, it does look to have been dipped, yes. Too shiny looking. Nice detail, though.

olmanjon

Yes -this does clear it up a little. I was to our local coin club meeting last week and bought a 1929 silver quarter from Canada in xf that is really grimey. One of the dealers at the meeting looked at it and said "...it would benefit from being dipped. Has a lot of shine left on it.." What should I dip it with or should I just use acetone on it?
Olmanjon

lordmarcovan

Well, that depends on what kind of griminess is on your Canadian quarter. If it's toned dark, acetone may do nothing at all to it (good or bad).

If you did it in Jeweluster or EZ-est or one of those commercial coin cleaning solutions, then it might benefit. Or not. Sometimes a good quick dip (followed by a rinse in distilled water) can bring out the luster (or proof mirrors) of a coin that are obscured beneath whatever the toning or discoloration is. It's important to rinse after you dip, though, because if traces of the dip are left on the coin, they'll turn it funky colors and do other bad things.

What I hate is dipping a coin with dark patches or stains, only to find out that the stains didn't come off in the dip, and the dip worked on the unstained areas, made them lighter, and now the dark stains stand out even worse. That sucks. Some coins respond well to dipping and some don't.

olmanjon

I think the grime is just plain old dirt. Will try the acetone first and see what happens. Only have $18 invested. In xf this coin trends for $60 so I think I will try several things. Thanks for all the info Lord M.
Olmanjon

7Jaguars

Yes, as LM intimates, it is a bit difficult to tell without seeing the coin. It is only the rare coin that is harmed by the acetone or alcohol cleanse (not cleaning). Tho only exception is that if some coin has soluble gunk adhering to the surface and the gunk is removed, the oxidation underneath is different than the parts of the coin not covered in gunk. Hope that makes sense.

There are many threads on this....Jewel Luster, etc. do remove oxidation but then also take some of the true luster in a coin away as they remove some of the metal underneath.


This coin is a bit hard to see as there are marks that look to be wear and not clearly striae but perhaps a bit more resolution might make this clear. Definately Gothic florins come with the striae and I have some (but sadly no picture capability). These florins come in mint state or near mint EF and above from satin to prooflike as some care was given with some dies and make the coin very close in apperance to proof & more often than not on the reverse.

Send us some more pictures please.

wybrit

The picture makes it difficult to tell a definitive answer to the question of whether it has been cleaned. If the lustre is flat, then it probably has.

As for condition, it looks to be in the EF range (gVF-EF). The reverse has some flattened lions, but that is typical of the business strike and not necessarily wear. If the grime is just removable grime you probably have some decent value in the piece. VF is 45 quid and EF is 150 quid per Spink - it's worth much more than $60 in xf.

Hussulo

When I use the term "dipped" here I mean it looks like it may be over dipped or dipped enough to be classed as cleaned whereby the lustre and most of its skin has been striped off. Over dipped coins will appear flat, dull and lifeless (if that makes sense).
They will also get body bagged by many TGP's.

Then again the coin may look different in hand or with different lighting. It's often hard to tell just from photo's.

Many coins have had brief dips but it would be hard to tell just by looking at them as they haven't been dipped enough to damage the coin. Once a coin has been over dipped its pretty much impossible to reverse the damage. The only thing that may make an over dipped coin look better is some dark toning which would take decades to achieve naturally.

7Jaguars

Yes, quite. These are such beautiful coins that there seems to be the temptation to "improve" them by dips, etc. As has been said elsewhere dips have their place but are probably overused.