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Anyone here have any early branch mint proofs?
stinkinlincoln
Posts: 2,733 ✭
If so, care to share? 
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stinkinlincoln
Posts: 2,733 ✭
stinkinlincoln
Posts: 2,733 ✭
stinkinlincoln
Posts: 2,733 ✭
stinkinlincoln
Posts: 2,733 ✭
Comments
Many have tru-view pictures.............
<<1892-O Very Choice Brilliant Proof
Recently discovered, this coin is unquestionably not a commercial striking, although my colleagues at PCGS declined the opportunity to encapsulate it as a proof, because of a lack of documentation or reason for it to be struck. Deep proof surface, not 100% struck up, but far better than the vast majority of the date. Ask to see it, on approval, or at a show in the near future. Please note that I discovered the Bruce Todd 1893-CC proof dollar and the Herb Bergen 1883-O proof dollar, so I do happen to know what I am talking about!! This may very well be a truly unique opportunity! 99750.>>
Anyone know anything about this coin?
That would presume there is even such a thing.
Prooflike? Certainly. Proofs? I'm not so sure....Mike
<< <i>"Anyone here have any early branch mint proofs?"
That would presume there is even such a thing.
Prooflike? Certainly. Proofs? I'm not so sure....Mike >>
So . . . you don't even think things like the 1838o half dollars, which would have been something very special since very few were made, were PROOFs?
http://www.coinsite.com/content/coinpics/1855sG3L.asp
Yes, this type coin exists and is verified.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
The branch mint proof section is a wonderful read, and has some very interesting information. If you have never checked this work out, you should do so. Its a must have for anyone seriously interested in early proof coinage.
Below is a list of O proof coins Breen mentioned in this book:
1838-O Half Dollar
1839 O Dime
1839 O Half Dollar
1844 O Half Dime
1844 O Half Eagle
1844 O Eagle
1845 O Half Dollar
1851 O Trime
1851 O Half Dollar
1852 O Half Dollar
1853 O Eagle
1854 O Half Dollar
1854 O Quarter Eagle
1856 O Half Dime
1857 O Half Dime
1859 O Dollar
1860 O Half Dime
1860 O Dollar
1861 O Half Dollar
1879 O Dollar
1883 O Dollar
1890 O Dollar
1891 O Quarter Dollar
1891 O Dollar
1892 O Dollar
1893 O Dollar
1895 O Quarter Dollar
1895 O Half Dollar
1895 O Half Dollar
1898 O Half Dollar
1899 O Quarter Dollar
Not mentioned is a 1891-O Dime in proof format. I have never seen this coin, but I remember recently reading about one that sold for $30$40K within the last several years at DLRC's.
Anyone else know of any other dates that the O mint could have produced that Breen has not mentioned in his book?
While their existence is debated, I tend to go with the crowd that says they exist.
Alot of people here have been in this hobby far longer than I, so I ask everyone have you seen any of these coins mentioned in hand? If so, what were your thoughts and opinions?
I realize without official mint records its hard to say 100%, but the coins do not lie.
Thank you for your time and very useful dialog in this thread, its truly been an interesting read so far.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Anyone here have any early branch mint proofs?"
That would presume there is even such a thing.
Prooflike? Certainly. Proofs? I'm not so sure....Mike >>
So . . . you don't even think things like the 1838o half dollars, which would have been something very special since very few were made, were PROOFs? >>
LanLord, Sorry, missed your question the first time around....
No, I don't think these branch mint coins are proofs. At least not the way I define the term - to mean made for sale to collectors, prepared on special planchets, and struck on special presses. These coins fail on all three levels.
Specimen strikes? Yes, that seems to be the best term, IMO, to describe these coins.
Desirable and different looking from other business struck coins? Of course.
Proofs? Not in my opinion.
Said another way, just because Breen and the TPGs call a coin a proof, doesn't make it so.
Respectfully...Mike
Some are readily apparent, such at the 1844-O $5 and $10. Others just mystify me - such as the 1839-O halves.
Also, what is the Mints definition of Proof?
I know they are branch mint proofs ‘cause I wrote “Proof” on the 2x2 holder myself with a permanent marker, so that’s what they are – forever…..That’s what Wally Breen did too, so it must be real.
"...the difference between a SP and a PR?"
Worms.
<< <i>Since Im sorta new to these coins and their history, can someone help me understand the difference between a SP and a PR?
Also, what is the Mints definition of Proof? >>
New to coins or a grizzly veteran, I think those are great questions -- and ones that I doubt you will get an authoritative answer on (particularly the first one).
Those disclaimers aside, here's my opinion on your first question...
Specimen coins are struck on normal presses with (typically) normal planchets sometimes on specially prepared dies. The coins were intended for presentation or other special events.
Proof coins are struck on specially prepared planchets, using specially prepared dies (a feature common to SP coins), struck using a special (high-pressure) press (generally more than once), with the intent to be sold to the public/collectors.
Given at the time the branch mints didn't have special presses and there is (to my knowledge) no record of them being sold to the public, then the coins in question cannot be proofs.
On your second question, I'm not sure but do hope someone more familiar with Mint terminology will pipe up.
All that said, I believe the real answer to why some coins are labeled "proof" when the evidence is less than compelling -- I think it comes down to one thing: $$$.
All of the above is just one idiot's opinion, respectfully submitted....Mike
Mike, Thank you for your opinion on the differences between SP and PR, also RWB!
Heres a coin I thought was interesting...
From Breens book:
"1879 O Dollar. [12] Struck Feb. 20, 1879 on
reopening of the New Orleans Mint as a coining
facility. Two seen; neither would ever be questioned
by a collector seeing only the obverse! They compare
well with Philadelphia proofs; they are among the
most carefully made New Orleans proofs. They were
first reported in Coin Collector's Journal about 1880,
the listings continued for several years in pocket size
vademecums for collectors, but after wards listings
were dropped and the coins forgotten. One is in SI,
the New Orleans Mint Superintendent having
presented it to the Mint Cabinet. Two others are in
private hands, one reportedly bringing $7500 (imp.) in
RARCOA 1973 CSNS sale, the other Kagin 'Sale of the
70's': 1342 at $8250."
Anyone ever see these coins?
I can fully understand the desire to strike something special in 1879 at N.O.
"1893 CC Dollar. [12] Wayte Raymond reported this
mintage; occasion, souvenirs given out at some
ceremony associated with the closing of the mint. Two
have been authenticated, both from the VAM 2 dies."
Who authenticated these? Are these around today?
<< <i>Anyone ever see these coins? >>
I've not seen the 79-o "proof" dollar.
I have seen, as I recall, two branch mint "proofs", a half dollar (1850's) and a dollar (1895, IIRC) Both were from from New Orleans. Clearly they were different than normal business struck coins, but frankly they just looked like well struck prooflike examples even under a loupe.
They left me with the impression (admittedly built on seeing very few examples in-hand) that they were just very well struck examples off of freshly prepared dies -- more similar to prooflike examples you see from time to time than the proofs struck at Philadelphia at the time.
I would, very much, like to hear the opinions of those who have more experience than I -- as I said earlier I'm anything but experienced with these coins, so please take the above FWIW...Mike
Theyre branch mint proofs, and while modern, they still qualify.
The basic problem is that we as numismatists today have no clear criteria in place, to define certain coins with unusual characterstics that appear different from the normal business strikes.
J D is working on a 3 volume book about these issues, but nobody knows exactly what he will be presenting in that work.
Prooflike first strikes, especially from the branch mints, are today, sometimes labeled as SP (specimen) or PR (proof). These have been validated primarily by Breen, who did not have valid confirmation or documentation to label them as such. He basically created "Specimen" strikes and copied the early proofs (begining in 1817) from Sheldon. None of what Breen presented in his proof books is based on anything factual except dealers in the 1950s & 1970s sending him pictures trying to get their coin(s) listed as such.
RWB, I, and others have pointed out that there is no record of such pieces intentionally struck as proof coinage at the branch mints. They could not get a second striking from the knucklejoint presses that were being used; and this is a key criteria for the proof designation.
There was an overlap of terminology used by Mint officials in the 1850's from Master-Coin and Proof, so the issue is not clear, even from the Mint. Therefore, the issue will continue to remain unclear until we (as a group) establish accepted diagnostics. I called for this years ago in my 1827/3/2 Quarter article in RCR.
Based on the commercial marketing of such items (for highest possible profit), we may never know the reality of BMP's, Master-Coins, or actual Proofs from the Philadelphia Mint prior to the 1850's.
<< <i>1892-O Proof <<1892-O Very Choice Brilliant Proof Recently discovered, this coin is unquestionably not a commercial striking, although my colleagues at PCGS declined the opportunity to encapsulate it as a proof, because of a lack of documentation or reason for it to be struck. Deep proof surface, not 100% struck up, but far better than the vast majority of the date. Ask to see it, on approval, or at a show in the near future. Please note that I discovered the Bruce Todd 1893-CC proof dollar and the Herb Bergen 1883-O proof dollar, so I do happen to know what I am talking about!! This may very well be a truly unique opportunity! 99750.>> Anyone know anything about this coin? >>
This is my coin and I am still convinced that it is NOT a commercial strike. Since there are no other methods of striking, then it should be a proof. I have just finished a brief discussion with David Hall and John Dannreuther and they have decided that my coin is not a proof, but I continue to believe differently.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
If anyone hears about the J.D. book on these coins, please let me know.
Julian, why did they disagree with you about that coin being a proof? Im not doubting your experience in any way, nor theirs, just very interested in these coins.
Is yours the only known example of this date?
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Hello community.I was just reading all the post about Branch mint proofs coins and answer your question and it's yes .I have in my possession a BMI cent I've had put away for years, they do exist.I found one and didn't even Kno what it was back in 2015 roll hunting I was shocked!!!! To see a proof in a roll of pennies so I thought I was from the sanfrancisco mint wen I saw it.I wasn't till like 2-3 days later I put it under the USB microscope and saw it had a D mint mark on it ,but it looks exactly like a 1969s but it's from Denver I was throwed as to what it's was I took it to numerous coin shops first they was dumbfounded ever where it went nobody could explain why this coin existed .So I sent it to be authinticated and graded costed a pretty pennie .So bout two weeks go by I get a call from the company congratulating me on my find and it's very valuable they told me that somehow , someway I had found the one of the mast rarest and extremely valuable Lincoln proof to be found in modern history they told me I had found a(Genuine 3.11 grams 1969D over D Lincoln memorial PROOF CENT graded(PR-67RB the only proof from the Denver in modern era they say it was made for a special person at the Denver mint or so special occasions put Denver has never made proof set or proofs for the public and all proofs from (1968 till now in 2022 all should have (S) mint mark comeing from sanfrancisco mint the proof from sanfrancisco mint and my BMP proof from the Denver mint are identical u can't tell them apart same weight, same colors frosty look.. YES they exist
Not again!
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@Landz Please post photos of your coin.
I still have proof of a mint branch!
I missed this guy's act on the first thread as it got closed so early, pass some popcorn.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.