Patch forger caught

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

Caught altering Hockey cards.


On Hobby Insider

Ugh.... you have to sign in/register to view the link. weak. Basically he was/is switching patches in Hockey cards.

Patch forger... caught!

This investigation by HI members has been ongoing for awhile now. Having evidence is always critical in finding a true forger, and we now have substantial enough information to send to eBay, Upper Deck and the RCMP, along with the eBay members who bought his forged cards. This is not defined as "fraud", but "forgery", under the Criminal Code of Canada. It will be interesting to see how this moves forward, but for now... this forger is CAUGHT.

Using at least two eBay IDs, this person has done several questionable purchases, forgeries and re-sells; however, I am showing ONLY those fake patch cards that are bulletproof obvious. There are about a dozen other auctions we have been watching... waiting for forged versions to show up. In some cases, he bought, forged & sold the cards under the same user ID (hnic_787); in other cases, he sold under the second ID (kao_seneca), likely to try and cover some tracks. His note in his auctions at the bottom says “I am a new Ebay seller, but I am honest and will try my best to provide the best service possible. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me, Bid with confidence! THANKS!” Honest, eh?

eBay contact information for one of the usernames, provided by an HI member, shows his full name & address; the other is listed under another name. After being provided emails from two different HI members on two different occasions, we were able to source the IP addresses of both eBay IDs, which are identical. As well, those IP addresses are linked directly to an HI membership IP address. Interestingly, the cell phones linked to both members’ eBay accounts were registered at the same cell phone shop in downtown Toronto. Just another nail in the coffin.

Here is the information we have to share:

Some evidence showing the two eBay IDs are likely the same person. Notice the way these somewhat identical cards are detailed:

ebay

ebay

Original card 21/25

New 21/25












15/20








41/50

Archaninator

.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>Copy and paste the info. please! >>



Done

storm888

The fraud never ends.

I have an uneasy feeling about how many "forged" GU
cards might currently reside in top-tier slabs.

I have played with some of the cards. It is not a major
operation to switch swatches in many such cards, and
there are no/few signs of tampering.

wolfbear

I like the fake ones better ...

lawnmowerman

I think his punishment should be to have all his hair ripped out of his head then re-plug his scalp with pubes.

EagleEyeKid

Ignorant question here....
Do these scammers basically split the thick card in half
in order to switch patches? I don't see any damage in the window
area that house the patch. Just curious.

storm888

"..Do these scammers basically split the thick card in half?..."

//////////////


No need to.

.....

The mfgs really need to start placing a plasitic screen
over the top of the material.

It won't be as fun if you can't touch the material, but
it will make the fakes hard to produce.

Robb

<< <i>"..Do these scammers basically split the thick card in half?..."

//////////////


No need to.

.....

The mfgs really need to start placing a plasitic screen
over the top of the material.

It won't be as fun if you can't touch the material, but
it will make the fakes hard to produce. >>



If done correctly, it could also make pack searching a lil' more tougher as well.

gumbyfan

I wonder if this guy has any ties to ebay id zinger222. A few years back, there were some folks tracking his ebay purchases & sales since he was doing the exact same thing with fake patches. It's amazing that his id is still active!

fur72

<< <i>"..Do these scammers basically split the thick card in half?..."

//////////////


No need to.

.....

The mfgs really need to start placing a plasitic screen
over the top of the material.

It won't be as fun if you can't touch the material, but
it will make the fakes hard to produce. >>





Ala Allen & Ginter.

jomer

Question ...........

"..Do these scammers basically split the thick card in half?..."


Answer .............

No need to.

.....

The mfgs really need to start placing a plasitic screen
over the top of the material.

It won't be as fun if you can't touch the material, but
it will make the fakes hard to produce.


errrrrrrrrrr ~ what ???? ~ Can you be more specific

Boopotts

<< <i>I like the fake ones better ... >>



Yeah, I'm not seeing how replacing those weak one-color patches with more attractive patches is all that offensive. It seems to me like the guy is just improving the cards, and doing what UD (or whomever) should have done in the first place in a product with this kind of price point. Pawning off resealed packs as original packs is one thing, but this doesn't seem like a scam at all-- in fact, it seems more like a public service than anything else.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

UD Response

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just wanted to chime in quickly here as Bruce shared this post with me. I won't be able to go back and forth on this so I apologize, but just wanted to at least explain our position on it and answer some questions that came up.

When we see situations like this, we look at legal action we can take. If we believe there is a case we usually will go after them on copyright infringement. They have changed our product where we authenticate a game-used swatch is used and they have changed it. For a variety of reasons, we don't comment on cases filed and what happens to people we go after, but we certainly do not turn a blind eye to it. I shared this thread with our legal team and they are reviewing.

I also shared the thread with our head of creative who ended up coming in my office shortly after I sent it over to discuss this. He's a pretty busy guy, but he came over because he takes it very seriously. He shared that we continue to look at ways to deter this practice of changing swatches out. We have looked at adding die-packs, stitching the swatch to the card, adding microfibers to the card and even sealing the edges, but the costs tied to these are pretty extreme to say the least. We discussed it and I'm of the belief these extra costs are not worth putting in because ultimately, you will end up paying for some of that.

We have taken preventative action and made scans before, but that too is very difficult as the timing on everything is so tight and counts need to be taken anytime you move cards. Additionally, you do not want to risk damaging the cards during that process either. We want to limit the handling of higher-end cards like this as much as possible. It sounds so easy, but when you do it, you realize what a big deal it is to pull off.

It’s tough, as you know where there is money to be made there are always those who are looking to take advantage. These people just care about the fast buck and after they’ve been kicked off e-bay, message boards and threatened with legal action, they pop up again under a different name. In my opinion they are like ****roaches. Luckily there are more of us than there are of them to shine a light on what they do. So on behalf of Upper Deck and myself as a sports card afficianado, thank you for any and all of your efforts to deter this practice and make examples of these people.

Chris

ndleo

I have to admit that the "forged"patch cards look fantastic. The Kiprusoff is amazing.

Most of those patch cards aren't from game used jerseys anyways.

Do these guys buy jerseys and cut them or up or just buy patches?

tunahead08

<< <i>
Yeah, I'm not seeing how replacing those weak one-color patches with more attractive patches is all that offensive. It seems to me like the guy is just improving the cards, and doing what UD (or whomever) should have done in the first place in a product with this kind of price point. Pawning off resealed packs as original packs is one thing, but this doesn't seem like a scam at all-- in fact, it seems more like a public service than anything else. >>



The problem is they sell their upgraded patch cards for quite a bit more than what the card is actually worth.

animist

<< <i>It’s tough, as you know where there is money to be made there are always those who are looking to take advantage. These people just care about the fast buck >>



Pot calling kettle black much? Like cutting up game worn jerseys into hundred of pieces and placing them in cards isn't about making a fast buck. Why do relic collectors even trust that the card companies are using actually pieces of authentic game worn jerseys? Is there some kind of oversight/audit group to ensure that the card companies aren't just cutting up scrap materials found in dumpsters?

Even if card companies originally started this practice by using authentic game used material, there has to have been significant temptation to start using scrap material somewhere along the way. In my line of work, I've seen much more trustworthy companies commit far worse fraud. It always starts out small...fudging a few numbers to make quarterly estimates, then having to move the numbers further the following quarter to catch up. I can easily imagine a card company running out of (insert hall of famer here) jersey material and deciding to grab (insert common player here) jersey to finish up the batch. It has probably happened countless times. Then, the card company starts to run into financial trouble and is looking for ways to cut costs. Replacing game used material with worthless overstocked jerseys would be very tempting low hanging fruit. Especially if they know that no one is really watching them very closely.

::steps off soapbox and goes back to searching ebay for prewar nonsports cards:::

Brent

2dueces

<< <i>I like the fake ones better ... >>



First thing I thought of too.

NickM

For current players, the jerseys are changed regularly and sold directly from the teams to the card companies. Why use fakes when you have a renewable supply? And when it comes to things like rookie photo shoot jerseys (especially the NFL), a player will put on and take off dozens of jerseys in rapid succession.

Getting caught using a jersey known to be off-the-shelf and certifying it as game-worn could lead to criminal charges against card company executives - and all it takes is one fired employee who knows the truth to blow the whistle. It's not a good risk and reward matchup.

I would be far more concerned that the third party authentication they relied on for the jerseys, bats, and autos that they bought at auction to cut up would be wrong - as has definitely happened with high-profile autos that they bought for insertion into packs.

BTW, the best proof that actual game-used bats are being used for the cards was the cork pieces in Manny Ramirez bat cards from Pacific. You're just not going to find store bats with cork in them and since it's designed not to be discovered as long as the bat is in one piece, if wouldn't make sense for a counterfeiter to do it. Bud "This scandal's for you" Selig responded by circling the wagons and pulling Pacific's license.

Nick

CDsNuts

The whole patch concept is stupid. Once upon a time when a player wore one, maybe two jerseys per game it was a neat and innovative idea for people who could not afford to buy game used jerseys. But if you're telling me you think it's cool that a card contains a swatch from one of the 187 jerseys that Chipper Jones put on for 3.5 seconds in the clubhouse before the May 13th home game against the Padres then you are very easily impressed. And if you're telling me it makes sense that a card with said swatch numbered 1/1 will often sell for more than a complete game worn jersey then there probably isn't any hope for you at all.

20 years from now after the card companies have completely run this gambit into the ground, nobody will care whether the patch card came from Donruss or Topps or Exquisite or Pacific. Similarly no one will care whether they are numbered to 100 or 25 or 5. They will all be worth the same $2 because people will look back with confusion as to why there were so many patch cards of their favorite player made and only buy if the price is too good to pass up.

mtcards

I agree that the fake ones look better, but the difference is what material is in there. Honestly, a Babe Ruth patch actually WORN by Babe Ruth is going to be more valuable in many regards than a random cut cloth that may LOOK better but is not the piece the player actually wore.

NickM

If all you wanted was a cool design on fabric, you could go for the Topps Letters or the fantasy large patches that Upper Deck has created.

Nick