Let's dispel the myth: Registry Collectors/ upgrades...
braddick
Posts: 24,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've read it on more than one occassion. Registry guys who are chasing after the 'point' in lieu of the 'coin'. For example, a Registry collector will replace that "Sparkling PQ MS66" for a butt-ugly MS67" for the point.
Yes! The upgrade is part of the game! I know.
Here's where I think this is a weak argument (I know there are exceptions-): I believe an upgrade is going to get you a better coin. Or, a coin that is NOT worse off than the one it is replacing.
Here's an example. I upgraded a NY State quarter from MS67 to MS68. The 67 looked great and I wasn't imagining the 68 could be better. It was, by a small margin (same luster, just two less ticks!).
Another example. The 1976-S Kennedy upgrade from MS67 to MS68. The MS68 is an "all there, no apology" MS68. I like it. Now, it does have the typical (attractive, nonetheless) Matte surfaces. It replaced though a 67 that had beautiful golden/bright yellow toning with RED rims. Is the MS68 a BETTER coin? Probably not- but, more importantly: is it a WORSE coin? Absolutely not.
I've spoken and/or PM'ed many Registry collectors. I've never heard of ONE who would glady take a coin that is not nearly as attractive as the one it replaces simply for the point. Unless someone steps up and admits they've done it, I just don't believe it's happened.
(On a side note: A coin was mentioned on another thread as being "four points under" what the submitter had believed it would grade out at. He also continued by stating the new owner was more than happy to take the coin and add it to his Registry. Somehow this was stand alone proof that Registry collecting is aimed at only collecting the numbers on the plastic. One interesting point of that thread was the original owner of the coin believed it might CAM (it did not). He also believed a planchet flaw would have been a solid reason for the 4 point downgrade. I disagree. Mint caused "problems" are NOT the same as post mint problems. I consider a planchet flaw as not a distraction like I would a tic or a mark- or even a thumbprint. If the new buyer felt the same way I did he would have been genuinely happy with the coin- not just the GRADE).
Yes! The upgrade is part of the game! I know.
Here's where I think this is a weak argument (I know there are exceptions-): I believe an upgrade is going to get you a better coin. Or, a coin that is NOT worse off than the one it is replacing.
Here's an example. I upgraded a NY State quarter from MS67 to MS68. The 67 looked great and I wasn't imagining the 68 could be better. It was, by a small margin (same luster, just two less ticks!).
Another example. The 1976-S Kennedy upgrade from MS67 to MS68. The MS68 is an "all there, no apology" MS68. I like it. Now, it does have the typical (attractive, nonetheless) Matte surfaces. It replaced though a 67 that had beautiful golden/bright yellow toning with RED rims. Is the MS68 a BETTER coin? Probably not- but, more importantly: is it a WORSE coin? Absolutely not.
I've spoken and/or PM'ed many Registry collectors. I've never heard of ONE who would glady take a coin that is not nearly as attractive as the one it replaces simply for the point. Unless someone steps up and admits they've done it, I just don't believe it's happened.
(On a side note: A coin was mentioned on another thread as being "four points under" what the submitter had believed it would grade out at. He also continued by stating the new owner was more than happy to take the coin and add it to his Registry. Somehow this was stand alone proof that Registry collecting is aimed at only collecting the numbers on the plastic. One interesting point of that thread was the original owner of the coin believed it might CAM (it did not). He also believed a planchet flaw would have been a solid reason for the 4 point downgrade. I disagree. Mint caused "problems" are NOT the same as post mint problems. I consider a planchet flaw as not a distraction like I would a tic or a mark- or even a thumbprint. If the new buyer felt the same way I did he would have been genuinely happy with the coin- not just the GRADE).
peacockcoins
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I had the oppertunity to upgrade a 1953 PR67 RD to a 1953 PR67 CAM Lincoln.My PR67 RD has no marks or color differences.The PR67 CAM had some very small toneing spots on OBV and REV.I declined to buy it on those grounds.While the grade and Cameo designation were indeed there,I just couldn't see the lack of eye appeal to me.I believe this is what you are getting at.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
I agree with Merz's comment about not adding a coin that he didn't like. Every once in a while, I find myself thinking about a coin not because I like it but because the coin's number will fit in nicely with the set I am aiming for. But, that thought flees after about 20 seconds. I plan to keep each coin I buy for a long time. After 20 seconds, I think "Why buy a butt ugly coin that I'll never look at again simply to get a number in a registry collection?" The coins I am after aren't so scarce or rare, so I know that soon enough I'll find one that I truly like and that I won't be ashamed to look at for the next however-many years.
That said, of course who's going to admit that he or she dumped a beautiful coin in favor of a mediocre, ugly higher graded specimen?
Mark
I do have some coins in my collection that I sent in to be graded,that I don't like the eye appeal.I plan to get better looking ones after I complete the set.I'll upgrade if I can but the eye appeal is important to me!
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Coin Collecting is suppose to be a Fun and with any Luck maybe a Rewarding Hobby not a Place of Competition. People who buy coins just for the Number better take a step back and re-evaluate what in the hell they are doing. If a Person is so Competitive that he has to buy a coin just for the Point maybe he should join a Rugby League. Damn sure bet he would get some sense kicked into his head there.
Don't take me wrong. Competition is a Great thing but it should stay in its place. Coin Collecting is Not its place IMO.
Did this make any sense ?
Take Care: Ken
OPEN OFFERS FOR ONE OF EACH (LOW END JUNK FINE)
1. ANY 1938-1964 JEFFERSON NICKEL IN PCGS-MS68FS: $5000++ The undergrade can be as low as around $150, so please make one of these MS68FS low end coins and sell it to me.
2. ANY 1948-1964 ROOSEVELT SILVER DIME IN PCGS-MS68: $2000++. Undergrade can be $50 - please sell me a "junk" $2000 coin.
3. ANY 1932-1964 WASHINGTON QUARTER IN PCGS-MS68: $6000++ (PRE-1955 THEN $7,000 AND UP). Undergrade is $75- pretty please sell me the $7,000 version one grade up that doesn't deserve to be in the holder!!
4. ANY POP 1 OR POP 2 PRE-1959 LINCOLN WHEAT CENT IN PCGS-MS68RD (NO STEEL CENTS): $4000++ (SPOTTED JUNK FINE). Undergrade is $50. I need one of the $4,000 "junkers"
5. ANY POP 1 OR 2 FINEST KNOWN IKE DOLLAR ($100 MORE THAN DENNIS WILL PAY YOU) (ONLY KIDDING DENNIS)!!
6. ANY 1952-1954 WASHINGTON CARVER COMMEM IN PCGS-MS67 POP 1: $7,500+++ (UGLY IS JUST FINE). Undergrade is a few hundred. Please offer me a butt ugly W/C in PCGS-MS67 as soon as possible.
etc., etc., etc.
In my personal experience, I have never bought a coin yet that PCGS (or NGC for that matter) hasn't stepped up and taken off the market if it was really outrageous for the holder and until I run into a problem I feel I can buy with confidence.
peacockcoins
Pat: Actually, what really confirms your premise is that I've been seeking these same coins since last March and, overall, the few I have been able to obtain haven't been dissapointing in the least. Essentially, the same experience as you - the one grade jump really makes a difference in most cases and if a collector really has a coin that is "just as nice as the one grade high coin" odds are they have an "upgrade" just waiting to happen anyway. And, I have seen that where there is a premium quality piece in a holder, it usually makes sense to "pay up" to get it! Quality isn't cheap
If you don't like the coin or if you don't think the coin is properly graded, why touch it
Whether someone will step up and admit that they go for grade over quality has nothing to do with it being true. I think many RS players automatically believe that a coin graded MS67 is better than a coin graded MS66. Technical surface marks might be true, but there is more to a coin than the number of marks on it. A while back I sold some Franklin halves on eBay. One was a PR67. One was a PR66 that had a super deep cameo obverse, but non-cameo reverse. Which one sold for more? The PR67. It was no better technically than the PR66 and the eye appeal wasn't even close. Which coin was better? Even if I am wrong and the PR67 really was of PR67 quality, it doesn't make it the better coin. I'd take the PR66 with the super DCAM obverse any day. If I was building a RS it wouldn't be worth as many points to me.
As for the coin that was 4 points overgraded, it was not just the planchet flaw that I did not like. I will say that the planchet flaw was rather distracting, but it was on the reverse. The coin simply lacked the quality for the given grade. I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that the coin would not receive the same grade if resubmitted. That is how confident that I am that the coin was severely overgraded. It just was a no doubt about it being a blown grade. The coin also had a scuff on the face and a few hairlines. Everything you'd want in an MS68.
The RS focuses on grade and not quality. As long as the focus is on grade points, the collectors will go for the grade instead of the quality.
I've spoken and/or PM'ed many Registry collectors. I've never heard of ONE who would glady take a coin that is not nearly as attractive as the one it replaces simply for the point.
That's odd. One of the forum members who was a world class set advertised for a low pop coin and actually stated what they would pay and didn't care what the coin looked like as long as it was in a PCGS slab. Of course this same collector has also stated that they like quality.
My point isn't only that "certain collectors will buy a holdered coin even it is low end for the grade", it's that there are many RS collectors that will buy a coin based only on its grade, even if they have a better coin in a lower grade. Why have a super MS66 with rainbow toning when you can have a bland MS67! They want the RS points instead of the quality. I honestly feel that this will hurt them in the long term. Maybe I'll be wrong? Only time will tell. There is no way in hell I'll fill my collection based on slabbed grade alone.
I'll also fully admit that this odd phenomena is not limited to RS collectors, but I bet that most of the people who purchase coins like this are RS collectors.
1) Why the generalizations? "All Registry collectors..." NONE that I know of! Sure, points count. A lot! No lie. But, an UPGRADE- although it doesn't always guarantee it- is a BETTER coin, or at minimum, has the appeal of the lower graded coin.
That's been my personal experience. Each and EVERY coin I've upgraded has had a better appeal or the SAME appeal as the coin it replaces.
2) It confuses me how (and this isn't just aimed at you-) in one thread the author can slam PCGS for UNDERgrading their coins (how many threads have started like that?)- then to have the same author rip on PCGS for OVERgrading their coins.
I imagine, in your mind, some of the coins you've had graded have been "gifts"- received grades you don't agree with. Fortunutely we are buying PCGS coins, not GREG G. graded coins.
For the most part, from what I've gathered, this is a picky group of collectors. If the coin isn't 'right' the Registry collector here doesn't want to own it.
3) Ok, so I have one more point... Discounting Proof coinage, would you please show me ANY 'ugly' MS68 Modern PCGS coin? I'd love to see it.
peacockcoins
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Tbig
<< <i>Discounting Proof coinage, would you please show me ANY 'ugly' MS68 Modern PCGS coin? I'd love to see it. >>
Have you ever seen any of the modern mint commems?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
RE: PCGS MS67 copper with carbon/ fingerprints/ milkspots- They're out there but thank goodness for PCGS's copper guarantee (NGC doesn't offer this). ((Remember TRUTH'S 'MS69' Indian cent...))!
peacockcoins
Like many of you, I buy a lot of coins over the internet from varying sources. I try to scrutinize the scans, but sometimes the quality leaves much to be desired. A couple of times I have purchased coins to upgrade my set that were not much, if any, better than the coin it replaced. Now, if I purchase an MS67 that clearly isn't, I will return it in a heartbeat. But sometimes, I'll get a just-made-it 67 and my previous coin is a PQ 66. Maybe the 67 is technically better because of marks, but the 66 has nicer appeal because of toning or luster. In those cases (twice that I can think of) I have included the higher graded coin in my registry set, but I keep the 66 also and will decide somewhere down the line which is the "better" coin.
Ken
If I receive an MS67 that clearly isn't I'll return it in a heartbeat.
I've purchased a couple of coins that were barely better than the one it replaced.
Bottom line: If that "upgrade" coin blows- it's sent back.
If it's equal or marginally better to the one it is replacing, you may reluctantly add it to your set.
If it's better, great!
peacockcoins
Even my posts in the Open Forum? I hope not.
1) Why the generalizations? "All Registry collectors..." NONE that I know of! Sure, points count. A lot! No lie. But, an UPGRADE- although it doesn't always guarantee it- is a BETTER coin, or at minimum, has the appeal of the lower graded coin.
That's been my personal experience. Each and EVERY coin I've upgraded has had a better appeal or the SAME appeal as the coin it replaces.
Not all the RS collectors will upgrade just for the points. I've met several that have top sets and all the coins I've seen in the sets are quality coins. I've talked to a few RS collectors that are going for eye appeal and not grade. I've sold you a few Kennedy upgrades and you actually asked about the coins. Unfortunately, I believe that you and the others are in the minority.
2) It confuses me how (and this isn't just aimed at you-) in one thread the author can slam PCGS for UNDERgrading their coins (how many threads have started like that?)- then to have the same author rip on PCGS for OVERgrading their coins.
I don't mind getting coins back graded lower than I thought. However, it's those solid and PQ coins that get undergraded that pisses me off. I've got to crack them out and resubmit them and I'll usually get the correct grade the second time. If the coins were borderline I could somewhat understand this, but not for solid coins.
I imagine, in your mind, some of the coins you've had graded have been "gifts"- received grades you don't agree with. Fortunately we are buying PCGS coins, not GREG G. graded coins.
I've received many coins graded far off from what I graded the coins. I've submitted enough coins that these few coins are a very small percentage. The problem is that these PCGS graded coins were originally Greg graded coins before I sent them in. And if PCGS keeps changing the standards for grading coins, they aren't going to be getting more of my coins. I felt ANACS was getting too inconsistent and I stopped submitting to them. It's nothing personal, but at some point I find it a waste of money. It's one thing to blow a grade now and again, it's another thing to systematically low ball grades in order to get resubmissions. That is unacceptable.
For the most part, from what I've gathered, this is a picky group of collectors. If the coin isn't 'right' the Registry collector here doesn't want to own it.
I think most of the people on this forum aren't fully representative of the RS collectors as a whole. This forum is filled with a knowledgeable group of people. HOWEVER, I will say that I've sold several RS coins to fellow forum members who never asked about the coin. All I ever stated was the grade and price. It's kind of funny, but one forum member has a statement about what he looks for in coins for his RS, but when he purchased a coin from me he never asked about the coin.
3) Ok, so I have one more point... Discounting Proof coinage, would you please show me ANY 'ugly' MS68 Modern PCGS coin? I'd love to see it.
When I run into them I'll send you the photos. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but I've seen several Lincoln cents with dark brown toning covering parts of the coin and some with carbon spots. I've seen state quarters with fingerprints. Kennedy halves with the most awful toning. Ike dollars that were just plain ugly and not because of the design. Not all were MS68s, but they were high grade.
Couple his post with many other conversations on and off this forum and that is how I came to my original conclusion.
Greg- You bring up good points.
But, could it be when you sold that RC the buyer knew you and your good reputation? Possibly he knew that you warrantied the coin and in essence were representing the coin with your good name by selling it. He could trust the coin because he trusted you?
I know there are some Moderns I've bought without asking about the coin. I've also known that if there were any problems with the coin the seller would have instructed me as to what they were and also had a healthy return priviledge. (That is one downside to some of these Moderns- in high grades some of them all look the same! For example, look at a MS68 NY state quarter- they all have that same "look" to them).
Also, one last thought: Collectors have their own set of pet peeves. I strongly dislike that brownish or whitish haze some Modern clads take on. I'll take an extra mark or two over that hazy toning. Some collectors want their coins 'mark free' at the expense of other attributes. To each his own. It could be what you found distasteful about the coin didn't bother the buyer (planchet flaws for example. They may bother you, they don't bother me).
peacockcoins
Every time I think my MS 65, looks better than a MS 67, I increase the power of of the loupe and can usually find a coin that truly is not better, but the differences are so slight the real question should be is it really worth it to spend so much more for so little increase in true quality.
Yes i`ve been quilty qoing for the point but felt the coin was really better. But the increase in points I pondered not, but the price increase for so little is what really bothered me. I have some MS 65s worth 15.00, when the MS 67 counterpart is 750.00 is it worth the points for grade rarity, when the MS 65 looks better?
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set