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More fake PCGS slabs on eBay?

kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
First, let me say that I have no proof of any intent to defraud on the part of the seller, and am not expressing any opinion in that regard. However, when I look at these auctions ending today (within hours) and the pedigree of the slab numbers, I am just not sure if these are genuine PCGS slabs or coins. These were brought to my attention by someone else, and this seems like an appropriate place to post them. There seem to be problems in the relation between the slab numbers and the barcodes, and the 96-O at least does not seem to be the same coin, in my personal opinion.

There are 3 Morgan dollars for sale, I will post the eBay auction first, then the most recent Heritage sale of the coin with the same id number.

first, 1884-S: eBay auction
Heritage auction Sold for $11,500 in Aug 2006.

1883-s: eBAy auction
Heritage auction Sold for $3,450 on April 30 2009.

1896-O: eBay listing
Heritage auction Sold for $5,318.75 on Feb 22 2009.

Comments

  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    A close look on the barcodes of the 1896-O show that the barcode on the label differs even though the rest of the printing appears to be the same. Fortunately, the seller provided enough resolution to verify this.

    [edit] Barcode mismatch on all three slabs is quite obvious.


    Does PCGS investigate situations where fakes of their slabs appear on the market. This appears to be a seller with a source of them.

  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, that is scary. I think that, if a scam, the setup has been brilliant.


  • << <i>A close look on the barcodes of the 1896-O show that the barcode on the label differs even though the rest of the printing appears to be the same. Fortunately, the seller provided enough resolution to verify this.

    [edit] Barcode mismatch on all three slabs is quite obvious.


    Does PCGS investigate situations where fakes of their slabs appear on the market. This appears to be a seller with a source of them. >>




    Good Eye image
    image
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    The someone-else who brought it to the attention of the OP has a good eye!

  • If you look closely, you will see that the bar code differs on all of the three coins. So it definately seems like these are fake slabs.

    And this is a private bidding auction, so there's no way to warn the bidders on this coin.

    Yet another reason to not buy anything on private bidding auctions.



    If it's reported now, would ebay be able to stop the auctions before it's ended?

  • ShortgapbobShortgapbob Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭
    Wow.....hopefully these can be removed from ebay. Definitely not the same coins as the Heritage coins.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

    For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.

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  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If you look closely, you will see that the bar code differs on all of the three coins. So it definately seems like these are fake slabs.

    And this is a private bidding auction, so there's no way to warn the bidders on this coin.

    Yet another reason to not buy anything on private bidding auctions.



    If it's reported now, would ebay be able to stop the auctions before it's ended? >>



    No way. Looks like a good samaritan needs to swoop in and "buy" it. --Jerry
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    It would be very interesting for 3 people here to take the top 3 bids and see if the underbidders are made second chance offers. He could have many of these.

    Have they been reported? If so, ebay will take them down after they close and the winning bidder won't have any issues.

    -Jerry
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    Another thing I've noticed recently is that if it's a one-day auction that closes on Sunday, run away because they're probably trying to pull a fast one before their auctions can be found out and snuffed out.

    This is another red flag like private auctions, no PayPal, no return policy and seller in China.
  • camera angle

    bar code looks the same. check out the 94-O
  • GFourDriverGFourDriver Posts: 2,366
    They are getting better and better at counterfeiting these, used to be that there was a difference in the size of the printing, now even that seems to have changed, Even the hologram seems to have improved..... buyer beware!
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    I sent this thead link to coinguy1 and as you might expect, he is on top of it. He recommends as many forum members as possible should report this and provided this list of item numbers for fakes. More than 3:

    260420037572
    260420039697
    260420043124
    260420051607
    260420039697
    260420043124
    260420051607


    --Jerry
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    China?..I saw PA.
  • GFourDriverGFourDriver Posts: 2,366
    <<<bar code looks the same. check out the 94-O>>>>

    It sure doesn't look the same on the 1884-S. The coin is not the same either, check out the obverse, there is a ding just in front of the nose on the fake also there is toning at 4 o'clock near the first star on the real coin that can't be seen on the fake. If one is fake, who wants to take a chance that the rest aren't?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>China?..I saw PA. >>

    China was one of a list of auction red flags, not necessarily something that's explicit in these particular auctions.

    The red flags here are 1-day Sunday auctions and private auctions.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>China?..I saw PA. >>

    Maybe I wasn't clear -- I just mean that *in general*, people should add "one-day auctions closing on Sunday" to the list of auction attributes that automatically make them suspicious that something stinks -- such as a seller in China, or private auctions, or some of the other ones I mentioned.
  • Boy after looking at the 83-S the only thing I see wrong is that there is color on the coin compared to the heritage coin- the coin turned blue!

    I hope you guys are right.

    they do offer a refund within 7 days..

    and who cares if it is a 1 day auction- it gets the blood flow for a bidding frenzy, but I'm not to crazy of the hidden buyer thing unless they have had a few goofballs telling the other buyers to back out on their bids....
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    The only thing missing on these eBay auctions:


    "12 available"


  • RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328
    So how long until they perfect the barcode duplication as well? image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So how long until they perfect the barcode duplication as well? image >>

    Perhaps there have been some already?
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭
    I can make a correct pcgs bar code in about 30 secs. I guess the fakers have no wish to do so as it wasnt very hard to figure out how to do it.

    I use it to check the pcgs graded coins I am interested in on eBay.
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>So how long until they perfect the barcode duplication as well? image >>



    Even with correct barcodes, these are obviously not the same coins sold on heritage. "look at the coin, not the holder." image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He's sold a whole slew of 89-CC's in the last few weeks too (with all positive feedback received).

    peacockcoins

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He's sold a whole slew of 89-CC's in the last few weeks too (with all positive feedback received). >>

    Check out those third-world slabs image

    Past / other auctions with third-world slabs is another red flag to look out for.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    Unfortunately, dramatically different lighting is a valid excuse as to why a coin looks dramatically different in two photographs.

    I would say that it is fairly easy to get the same coin to look totally different when you have different illumination.

    So, knowing this, how could one prove that two different images are two different coins?

    One would need very high resolution images; enough to compare the hits on the coin between the two images. Heritage provides this. eBay sellers generally do not. That means that you must purchase this suspected counterfeit and compare it to the Heritage photos in-hand prior to assessing whether the eBay coin is the same as the auction coin...or is counterfeit.

    This, of course, assumes that the auction house never sold a counterfeit coin. It's a pretty safe bet, but I suspect that it is possible that a really good one could get through.

    *SHUDDER*

    Once the label is identical, we are left with attempting to compare two coin pictures under dramatically different lighting.


    There are technical solutions; put a RFID chip into the slab, add a little cryptography so that the data sent in the air is a hash of the secret...not the secret itself. One needs a reader of course. Now you have a way of reading the slab in such a way that one cannot make one slab that duplicates another. Yep, it sucks. Won't stop eBay fraud like this.


  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This seller's feedback shows 1884-S Morgans in MS64 and AU53 in the last few months. I cannot imagine he would willingly allow an $11,000+ 1884-S Morgan from a Heritage sale to sell for just $6,100 on eBay today. The coins look entirely different from the Heritage pictures. What's to be done when those selling fakes start actually using the Heritage photos in their eBay auctions?

    I reside just 20 miles away from Mount Pocono, PA. It does not have the most savory reputation. It is a convenient base for running a scam via a P.O. Box as it is only 90 minutes on Interstate 80 from NYC.
  • There is another e-Bay listing closing today for a 1884-S PCGS MS-63 Morgan with item location shown as Poconos, PA. Different seller ID. Starting bid shown as $19,500. New seller with none of previous items sold over $40. Item number is 250435029221. Could someone with more knowledge than me please take a look at it? Thanks.
    Bob

  • I have had some pcgs and ngc slabs in the past with duplicate numbers and I thought they were counterfeit coins inside but to my suprise they were authentic coins. I think there are disgruntle employees who maybe did not get the grade they wanted and they use duplicate numbers to grade the coins themselves because they have acces to the slabs. However I have also seen fake slabs with fake coins inside so I do not know what these are. I have bought a coin from this seller with no problems in the past. As far as the other coin I am not sure because the seller is to new at least on ebay. Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Uh-oh. the item in question can be viewed here
    To my unaided eye, the coin looks AT, but I'll wait for the experts to chime in.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There is another e-Bay listing closing today for a 1884-S PCGS MS-63 Morgan with item location shown as Poconos, PA. Different seller ID. Starting bid shown as $19,500. New seller with none of previous items sold over $40. Item number is 250435029221. Could someone with more knowledge than me please take a look at it? Thanks. >>



    Here's the link:
    Link

    I wrote the seller asking if I could see the coin in person next week (if it does not sell). Said I'd meet him
    anywhere he wants. We'll see what response I might get.
    bob

    Here's the response I got:
    Dear bobandlinda1,

    Hi Bob, that sounds great and I will let you know. Thank you Charley
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think it looks much like this one with the same id number from Heritage, View here
    That coin sold for 46,000 in July 2008.
  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting, too, that based on the serial numbers from his slab-o-matic grading company, he sold the same 89-CC twice on May 14. Also interesting that so many of his pot-metal coins are whizzed. What a great way to cover up counterfeit irregularities!!
  • lol indeed it does not look the same however I have seen people artificially tone a coin inside a holder before so you cant go by the toning alone. The seller does show authentcation pics and the coin looks authentic to me.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look closely at the position of the id number to the bar code lines below on the label. They are completely different. I don't think that toning the coin inside the slab would change that, would it?
  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL >>



    Are you working on your "Blame America First" demerit badge?

    Edit for spelling
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The "toned" 1884-s Morgan has been taken down due to an error in the listing.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The "toned" 1884-s Morgan has been taken down due to an error in the listing. >>



    So, now this is the email I get from Charlie:

    "Dear bobandlinda1,

    Hi Bob, I was told to resend the coin in for grading to check authenticity so that is what I am going to do so I ended the item. The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before. Thank you Charley"


    Well, I guess we won't be meeting in NYC or Poconos next week after all!
    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • TorinoCobra71TorinoCobra71 Posts: 8,020 ✭✭✭
    I agree with the posters here, the barcode just doesnt look right.

    image
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL >>



    Are you working on your "Blame America First" demerit badge?

    Edit for spelling >>



    Whoever wrothe that and edited it later is an idiot, looking for redemption.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before >>



    Hm.

    I'm having a little problem understanding the cause and effect here.

    If you remove the word "because", replace it with a period. It makes more sense.

    But, the word 'because' causes some confusion.

    Perhaps this is one of those folks that does not know the meaning of the word 'because' or simply carelessly misuses that word.
    Or perhaps the reality is darker. A paranoid individual like me does not gain trust this way.

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before >>

    Maybe the reason for his poor English is that it is not his native tongue. Perhaps the translation from Mandarin is more difficult than we suspect (although the use of the colloquialism "ripped off" might lead one to believe that he is a native, just not educated beyond the 8th grade...)
  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><< The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before >>

    Maybe the reason for his poor English is that it is not his native tongue. Perhaps the translation from Mandarin is more difficult than we suspect (although the use of the colloquialism "ripped off" might lead one to believe that he is a native, just not educated beyond the 8th grade...) >>



    In my estimation the seller (keydateking) and the poster you quote (mygorgeouscoins) are the same person. In his first post he tells us that PCGS and NGC coins with duplicate certification numbers are in fact authentic since disgruntled TPG employees are reusing the numbers. Talk about smoke and mirrors. Just in case we don't have sufficent reason not to doubt dubious slabs he reminds us "Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL"
  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<In my estimation the seller (keydateking) and the poster you quote (mygorgeouscoins) are the same person.>>

    Very perceptive - I think you're right. He (mygorgeouscoins) also says that he has "bought coins from this seller in the past with no problems". He also makes a number of spelling/English errors in his posts.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! >>

    Are they trying to get clean water by selling these slabs? image


  • << <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! >>

    I don't wonder...

    Please step down from that soap box. It's a bit annoying.

    Actually, I don't live my life trying to get the rest of the world to like me.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    eBAy has removed the fake slab listings.
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't wonder... >>




    image
    Ed

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