More fake PCGS slabs on eBay?
kaz
Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
First, let me say that I have no proof of any intent to defraud on the part of the seller, and am not expressing any opinion in that regard. However, when I look at these auctions ending today (within hours) and the pedigree of the slab numbers, I am just not sure if these are genuine PCGS slabs or coins. These were brought to my attention by someone else, and this seems like an appropriate place to post them. There seem to be problems in the relation between the slab numbers and the barcodes, and the 96-O at least does not seem to be the same coin, in my personal opinion.
There are 3 Morgan dollars for sale, I will post the eBay auction first, then the most recent Heritage sale of the coin with the same id number.
first, 1884-S: eBay auction
Heritage auction Sold for $11,500 in Aug 2006.
1883-s: eBAy auction
Heritage auction Sold for $3,450 on April 30 2009.
1896-O: eBay listing
Heritage auction Sold for $5,318.75 on Feb 22 2009.
There are 3 Morgan dollars for sale, I will post the eBay auction first, then the most recent Heritage sale of the coin with the same id number.
first, 1884-S: eBay auction
Heritage auction Sold for $11,500 in Aug 2006.
1883-s: eBAy auction
Heritage auction Sold for $3,450 on April 30 2009.
1896-O: eBay listing
Heritage auction Sold for $5,318.75 on Feb 22 2009.
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Comments
[edit] Barcode mismatch on all three slabs is quite obvious.
Does PCGS investigate situations where fakes of their slabs appear on the market. This appears to be a seller with a source of them.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>A close look on the barcodes of the 1896-O show that the barcode on the label differs even though the rest of the printing appears to be the same. Fortunately, the seller provided enough resolution to verify this.
[edit] Barcode mismatch on all three slabs is quite obvious.
Does PCGS investigate situations where fakes of their slabs appear on the market. This appears to be a seller with a source of them. >>
Good Eye
And this is a private bidding auction, so there's no way to warn the bidders on this coin.
Yet another reason to not buy anything on private bidding auctions.
If it's reported now, would ebay be able to stop the auctions before it's ended?
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<< <i>If you look closely, you will see that the bar code differs on all of the three coins. So it definately seems like these are fake slabs.
And this is a private bidding auction, so there's no way to warn the bidders on this coin.
Yet another reason to not buy anything on private bidding auctions.
If it's reported now, would ebay be able to stop the auctions before it's ended? >>
No way. Looks like a good samaritan needs to swoop in and "buy" it. --Jerry
Have they been reported? If so, ebay will take them down after they close and the winning bidder won't have any issues.
-Jerry
This is another red flag like private auctions, no PayPal, no return policy and seller in China.
bar code looks the same. check out the 94-O
260420037572
260420039697
260420043124
260420051607
260420039697
260420043124
260420051607
--Jerry
It sure doesn't look the same on the 1884-S. The coin is not the same either, check out the obverse, there is a ding just in front of the nose on the fake also there is toning at 4 o'clock near the first star on the real coin that can't be seen on the fake. If one is fake, who wants to take a chance that the rest aren't?
<< <i>China?..I saw PA. >>
China was one of a list of auction red flags, not necessarily something that's explicit in these particular auctions.
The red flags here are 1-day Sunday auctions and private auctions.
<< <i>China?..I saw PA. >>
Maybe I wasn't clear -- I just mean that *in general*, people should add "one-day auctions closing on Sunday" to the list of auction attributes that automatically make them suspicious that something stinks -- such as a seller in China, or private auctions, or some of the other ones I mentioned.
I hope you guys are right.
they do offer a refund within 7 days..
and who cares if it is a 1 day auction- it gets the blood flow for a bidding frenzy, but I'm not to crazy of the hidden buyer thing unless they have had a few goofballs telling the other buyers to back out on their bids....
"12 available"
<< <i>So how long until they perfect the barcode duplication as well? >>
Perhaps there have been some already?
I use it to check the pcgs graded coins I am interested in on eBay.
<< <i>So how long until they perfect the barcode duplication as well? >>
Even with correct barcodes, these are obviously not the same coins sold on heritage. "look at the coin, not the holder."
peacockcoins
<< <i>He's sold a whole slew of 89-CC's in the last few weeks too (with all positive feedback received). >>
Check out those third-world slabs
Past / other auctions with third-world slabs is another red flag to look out for.
I would say that it is fairly easy to get the same coin to look totally different when you have different illumination.
So, knowing this, how could one prove that two different images are two different coins?
One would need very high resolution images; enough to compare the hits on the coin between the two images. Heritage provides this. eBay sellers generally do not. That means that you must purchase this suspected counterfeit and compare it to the Heritage photos in-hand prior to assessing whether the eBay coin is the same as the auction coin...or is counterfeit.
This, of course, assumes that the auction house never sold a counterfeit coin. It's a pretty safe bet, but I suspect that it is possible that a really good one could get through.
*SHUDDER*
Once the label is identical, we are left with attempting to compare two coin pictures under dramatically different lighting.
There are technical solutions; put a RFID chip into the slab, add a little cryptography so that the data sent in the air is a hash of the secret...not the secret itself. One needs a reader of course. Now you have a way of reading the slab in such a way that one cannot make one slab that duplicates another. Yep, it sucks. Won't stop eBay fraud like this.
I reside just 20 miles away from Mount Pocono, PA. It does not have the most savory reputation. It is a convenient base for running a scam via a P.O. Box as it is only 90 minutes on Interstate 80 from NYC.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
To my unaided eye, the coin looks AT, but I'll wait for the experts to chime in.
<< <i>There is another e-Bay listing closing today for a 1884-S PCGS MS-63 Morgan with item location shown as Poconos, PA. Different seller ID. Starting bid shown as $19,500. New seller with none of previous items sold over $40. Item number is 250435029221. Could someone with more knowledge than me please take a look at it? Thanks. >>
Here's the link:
Link
I wrote the seller asking if I could see the coin in person next week (if it does not sell). Said I'd meet him
anywhere he wants. We'll see what response I might get.
bob
Here's the response I got:
Dear bobandlinda1,
Hi Bob, that sounds great and I will let you know. Thank you Charley
That coin sold for 46,000 in July 2008.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL >>
Are you working on your "Blame America First" demerit badge?
Edit for spelling
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>The "toned" 1884-s Morgan has been taken down due to an error in the listing. >>
So, now this is the email I get from Charlie:
"Dear bobandlinda1,
Hi Bob, I was told to resend the coin in for grading to check authenticity so that is what I am going to do so I ended the item. The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before. Thank you Charley"
Well, I guess we won't be meeting in NYC or Poconos next week after all!
bob
<< <i>
<< <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL >>
Are you working on your "Blame America First" demerit badge?
Edit for spelling >>
Whoever wrothe that and edited it later is an idiot, looking for redemption.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before >>
Hm.
I'm having a little problem understanding the cause and effect here.
If you remove the word "because", replace it with a period. It makes more sense.
But, the word 'because' causes some confusion.
Perhaps this is one of those folks that does not know the meaning of the word 'because' or simply carelessly misuses that word.
Or perhaps the reality is darker. A paranoid individual like me does not gain trust this way.
Maybe the reason for his poor English is that it is not his native tongue. Perhaps the translation from Mandarin is more difficult than we suspect (although the use of the colloquialism "ripped off" might lead one to believe that he is a native, just not educated beyond the 8th grade...)
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i><< The coin was checked by the local dealer and he said it was authentic because I was ripped off by bogus slabs before >>
Maybe the reason for his poor English is that it is not his native tongue. Perhaps the translation from Mandarin is more difficult than we suspect (although the use of the colloquialism "ripped off" might lead one to believe that he is a native, just not educated beyond the 8th grade...) >>
In my estimation the seller (keydateking) and the poster you quote (mygorgeouscoins) are the same person. In his first post he tells us that PCGS and NGC coins with duplicate certification numbers are in fact authentic since disgruntled TPG employees are reusing the numbers. Talk about smoke and mirrors. Just in case we don't have sufficent reason not to doubt dubious slabs he reminds us "Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! LOL"
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Very perceptive - I think you're right. He (mygorgeouscoins) also says that he has "bought coins from this seller in the past with no problems". He also makes a number of spelling/English errors in his posts.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! >>
Are they trying to get clean water by selling these slabs?
<< <i>Well with all the craziness going on in the world and people starving and here we are disgussing plastic slabs while children do not have clean water to drink and we wonder why the rest of the world hates us! >>
I don't wonder...
Please step down from that soap box. It's a bit annoying.
Actually, I don't live my life trying to get the rest of the world to like me.
<< <i>I don't wonder... >>