Buying coins at coin shows......for investment

skeeter

Seems like when I go to a coin show most everyone there wants retail ++++ for their coins. I have only been collecting for 2+ years but when I decide to buy a coin, I would like to think I could sell it for what I paid for it or a little more in a year or two.

It seems to be worse with raw coins.

Other than 25 years experience, what is the key to buying coins at a show when you dont have a computer to check prices?

sinin1

don't pay good money unless you can grade well, can recognize problem coins, and know the series well enough to know the value

there are more coins at shows than you can buy

have a plan - even if it means being specific enough to be looking for a unc bust quarter between 1830 and 1835


you still won't know how your plan is going unless you are excellent grader - you may have invested in problem coins for years

illini420

<< <i>
have a plan
>>



Absolutely. Have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for and bring the information regarding those coins along with you. If you like a bunch of coins and want to make things a little easier, buy a current Greysheet and that'll give you an idea of what the going prices are for coins that are outside of your main focus (although the Greysheet isn't close to the real market prices on some issues, it's an overall decent guide). Other than that, many dealer will have computers at their tables, especially at a major show. I've asked on several occasions for them to look up the current PCGS Guide price on a coin for me or to even look up recent Heritage prices on a coin. Never had a problem and it seemed as if they are happy to help, as they should be if they want to get a coin sold Could also carry around a phone that has internet access and do the work yourself.

DaveG

Generally speaking, at the larger shows you can find dealers who sell at wholesale or pretty close to it.

The key to buying from the wholesale dealers is to know coins well and know what you want to pay. I've seen experienced dealers go through a slab box in about two minutes, picking out ten or more coins. They ask the seller what he needs and then says "yes" or "no" right away.

Paying cash or having a tax ID (reseller) is good too.


Just out of curiosity, if you've only been collecting for 2+ years, how do you know that coin show sellers want "retail ++++" for their coins? What are you comparing their prices to?

RedTiger

<< <i>Seems like when I go to a coin show most everyone there wants retail ++++ for their coins. I have only been collecting for 2+ years but when I decide to buy a coin, I would like to think I could sell it for what I paid for it or a little more in a year or two.

It seems to be worse with raw coins.

Other than 25 years experience, what is the key to buying coins at a show when you dont have a computer to check prices? >>



Bring a cheat sheet with current pricing on everything you are interested in. Focus on the coins on the list. Learning the market in terms of pricing and availability, and developing excellent contacts are two keys for a would-be coin investor. A third piece is exceptional grading skill. Sounds like one and two are out, do you have number three, grading skill?

Another consideration is who you are going to sell to. Do you have retail customers that will buy from you? If not, the odds of success are exceedingly small. Retail customers buying at coin shows that resell a year or two later at wholesale back to dealers have the odds stacked way against them.

If that is the case, a person that still insists on "investment" coins, I would say to look for coins close to bullion value such as 90% silver rolls, or foreign silver. The markup tends to be a lower percentage, and grading skill is not needed, just shop for price.

roadrunner

Generic gold is one part of the market where small premium exist. Whle you will find retailers with 10-20% markups in this arena, it's very easy to find dealers working on 5% or less. If you get a dealer you can trust out buying for you, a markup of 5-10% can be easily achieved if you are a faithfull buyer who keeps coming back. This usually will not be a B&M type dealer, but rather someone who doesn't have the overhead of a shop and spends a lot of time seeking out deals, collections, and auctions.

roadrunner

TomB

Knowledge.

bidask

A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven. >>



How do dealers make money then? Collectors can do the same thing dealers do if they have a clue.

Ken

COALPORTER

Get Lucky.
I bought allot of coins in the 1995 to 2000 time frame not really knowing, or wanting to know, anything about the state of the "market" (if there is one )
Little did I know allot of classic coins would double and tripple in the following 8 years.

About the only way to really profit is to get lucky with the wild market swings. You really need the Grey Sheet to move in your favor, because, as we know, most dealers are slaved to the sheet.
I doubt one could buy a coin now and make a profit in one or two years- you will be lucky to get 50% imho

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven. >>



How do dealers make money then? Collectors can do the same thing dealers do if they have a clue.

Ken >>


Collectors could ........but the expectation they will is not reasonable.

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>I doubt one could buy a coin now and make a profit in one or two years- you will be lucky to get 50% imho >>


Really? I've bought coins at one dealer's table and walked them over to another dealer's table and sold for a reasonable profit within minutes. I've done this at small monthly shows, as well as at shows like winter FUN. Yes, I'm a part time dealer, but I'm generally not wearing a dealer badge when I'm walking the shows. Knowledge, experience, and expertise in a few series is the key. I would not dare try this with commens, gold, or other areas I'm unfamiliar with.

COALPORTER

Really? I've bought coins at one dealer's table and walked them over to another dealer's table and sold for a reasonable profit within minutes. I've done this at small monthly shows, as well as at shows like winter FUN

Were these one time cherry picks dealer pantsings, and you knew exactly who to sell to at prices way over sheet?

I'd like to be a part time dealer, but most dealers can somehow tell i'm not.

COALPORTER

The only time I made out like a bandit was when a dealer looked at the wrong coin on the Grey Sheet. I knew when he quoted me a price that he was way low and looking at the wrong column in the sheet, but what was I to do?

Another time, at a show, I had a collecter offer to buy a coin that I just bought from a dealer, and the guy had a "name your price" attitude, but I wanted the coin more than money, so I missed a chance for a quick flip profit - Am I dumb or what ?

TwoSides2aCoin

I'd take the expert's advice and do what makes you happy.

kranky

<< <i>Seems like when I go to a coin show most everyone there wants retail ++++ for their coins. I have only been collecting for 2+ years but when I decide to buy a coin, I would like to think I could sell it for what I paid for it or a little more in a year or two.

It seems to be worse with raw coins. >>



That's kind of an unrealistic expectation unless (as previous posts have shown) you are very skilled. Is it possible you could benefit from broadening the number of dealers you shop at?



<< <i>Other than 25 years experience, what is the key to buying coins at a show when you dont have a computer to check prices? >>


The Greysheet is probably your best bet, but it's not always right either. When you say people want retail+++, what do you base that on? What price guide are you referring to?

skeeter

<< <i>Just out of curiosity, if you've only been collecting for 2+ years, how do you know that coin show sellers want "retail ++++" for their coins? What are you comparing their prices to? >>




I kept the prices on what I paid and because I have decided to upgrade some Dansco album coins..... when I sell mine........ it is not pretty.

kranky

edit: double post

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>but I wanted the coin more than money, so I missed a chance for a quick flip profit - Am I dumb or what ? >>


If it was a legitimately scarce coin that you needed and had been looking for, then the coin is certainly more valuable to you than a profit. If it was a coin you could have readily replaced (which I doubt, given that someone else was ready to pay anything for it), then....

As for dealers at shows asking retail+++, don't do biz with them, unless they have something you really want that you can't find elsewhere - especially if you're thinking about being able to break even within a year or two. Dealers like (deleted for fear of getting blasted) - they carry nice stuff for sure, but any substantial profit will likely be made by your heirs, unless you really know what you're doing or the market gets white hot nuclear again.....

RedTiger

<< <i>

<< <i>A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven. >>



How do dealers make money then? Collectors can do the same thing dealers do if they have a clue.

Ken >>



Dealers make money buying at wholesale often in large quantities, and selling at retail in small lots. Dealers live on their wits, their contacts, their negotiating skill, their grading skills. Collectors certainly can emulate dealers if they have enough money to buy in quantity, enough contacts to be able to sell at retail, enough market knowledge to know a price where a profit can be made, enough grading skill to stay apart from the crowd.

The average collector with few contacts, only a basic understanding of pricing, and only basic grading skills won't be able to cut it. Collectors that pay full boat retail for average coins, and a year later sell at wholesale back to dealers are likely to get back about 50% of their money after a year. There are plenty of those kinds of collectors. There is a small elite group of collectors that have enough contacts, knowledge and skill to turn profits. To get from the first group to the elite group is not an easy task, and only a few have the talent and drive to make it.

illini420

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven. >>



How do dealers make money then? Collectors can do the same thing dealers do if they have a clue.

Ken >>



Dealers make money buying at wholesale often in large quantities, and selling at retail in small lots. Dealers live on their wits, their contacts, their negotiating skill, their grading skills. Collectors certainly can emulate dealers if they have enough money to buy in quantity, enough contacts to be able to sell at retail, enough market knowledge to know a price where a profit can be made, enough grading skill to stay apart from the crowd.

The average collector with few contacts, only a basic understanding of pricing, and only basic grading skills won't be able to cut it. Collectors that pay full boat retail for average coins, and a year later sell at wholesale back to dealers are likely to get back about 50% of their money after a year. There are plenty of those kinds of collectors. There is a small elite group of collectors that have enough contacts, knowledge and skill to turn profits. To get from the first group to the elite group is not an easy task, and only a few have the talent and drive to make it. >>



While I agree that the average collector who buys at retail and who sells quickly probably won't get back what they paid, I really doubt it is as bad as a 50% loss in all cases. Any average joe who can take a decent photo can list their coins on eBay or the BST and get pretty darn close to full retail back out of their coins. Of course, that only works if the coin was a nice coin to begin with and is worth of a full retail price. The problem is that there are many dealers out there selling substandard coins to newbies for full retail. Those are the folks who might be in for a 50% loss if they sell soon.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>Just out of curiosity, if you've only been collecting for 2+ years, how do you know that coin show sellers want "retail ++++" for their coins? What are you comparing their prices to? >>




I kept the prices on what I paid and because I have decided to upgrade some Dansco album coins..... when I sell mine..... it is not pretty. >>



This is painful to read, but it's reality nonetheless.

RedTiger

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>A year or two is generally not long enough of a holding period to expect a profit or even beakeven. >>



How do dealers make money then? Collectors can do the same thing dealers do if they have a clue.

Ken >>



Dealers make money buying at wholesale often in large quantities, and selling at retail in small lots. Dealers live on their wits, their contacts, their negotiating skill, their grading skills. Collectors certainly can emulate dealers if they have enough money to buy in quantity, enough contacts to be able to sell at retail, enough market knowledge to know a price where a profit can be made, enough grading skill to stay apart from the crowd.

The average collector with few contacts, only a basic understanding of pricing, and only basic grading skills won't be able to cut it. Collectors that pay full boat retail for average coins, and a year later sell at wholesale back to dealers are likely to get back about 50% of their money after a year. There are plenty of those kinds of collectors. There is a small elite group of collectors that have enough contacts, knowledge and skill to turn profits. To get from the first group to the elite group is not an easy task, and only a few have the talent and drive to make it. >>



While I agree that the average collector who buys at retail and who sells quickly probably won't get back what they paid, I really doubt it is as bad as a 50% loss in all cases. Any average joe who can take a decent photo can list their coins on eBay or the BST and get pretty darn close to full retail back out of their coins. Of course, that only works if the coin was a nice coin to begin with and is worth of a full retail price. The problem is that there are many dealers out there selling substandard coins to newbies for full retail. Those are the folks who might be in for a 50% loss if they sell soon. >>



Did I even write that? I wrote about someone who doesn't know how to grade very well, that doesn't have many contacts, that pays full boat retail and a year later sells back to a dealer at wholesale. Please. If a person wants to pay full retail, and then spend more money on a camera, and then more weeks or months (or years) learning to use the camera, and then days and days listing the coins to sell at retail (Ebay), more hours packing and shipping them, sure they will do better than a 50% loss on average. That's not what I wrote though.

Walkerguy21D

Lots of excellent advice provided by RedTiger and others.

To the OP - the bottom line is that there are no short cuts - but do not despair, like anything else, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it, and it wouldn't be worthwhile. The fun part is that the learning never ends - I'm sure EVERYONE on here has made mistakes, and probably still do, just not as often as when they were less experienced.
Shows are excellent venues to see LOTS of coins and get lots of experience, and occasionally buy something - much more so than a B&M store, Ebay, or anywhere else, IMO. Hang in there!

Sunnywood

It seems to be worse with raw coins.

Wow, that statement is scary. D O N O T B U Y R A W C O I N S as an "investment" unless you are a seasoned expert with years of experience !!!!!!! I'm not sure you should buy ANY coins as an investment, but I am absolutely sure that you should buy only PCGS and NGC coins if your purpose is to accrue capital appreciation and sell them later for a gain. Preferably you will gain a lot of experience looking at, studying and pricing coins before you start "investing." And if you don't like retail, consider auction coins - that's where most of the supply comes from these days. But beware of the hotly contested coins that get bid way up by competing collectors - an "investor" can never compete with a driven collector (who often won't care if he overpays). The trick is to buy the kinds of coins that a driven collector will want ... but buy them when nobody else is competing.

Sunnywood

TwoSides2aCoin

And what Sunnywood says , please keep in the " circle of trust".