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How can you grade a coin that is deeeeeeply toned ?

mach19mach19 Posts: 4,002 ✭✭
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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it's too deeply toned, it's damaged and probably can't be graded.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭


    << <i>If it's too deeply toned, it's damaged and probably can't be graded. >>



    Not true I had a PCGS MS 64 Kennedy that was almost black, I bought it because I never had seen one so dark,
    bought it as a novelty...sold it because it was so ugly...no pics but it was VERY DARK!! I always wondered how
    they came up with the grade surfaces so dark couldn`t see anything else...
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    My best guess is a lot of toned coins are graded conservatively in case the toning is hiding hairlines. At least at PCGS, at NGC coins seem to get a grade bump for eye appeal, although that is just hearsay and might not be true.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doesn't toning that's black essentially destroy the luster? If you dip a darkly toned coin to remove this black tarnish you'll wind up with a dull lifeless coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭
    Yea this coin had zero luster...never have seen a slabbed coin that dark...
    I was a Kennedy fan but that coin was too dark to be a keeper...
    It certainly was different though...
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,574 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Yea this coin had zero luster...never have seen a slabbed coin that dark...
    I was a Kennedy fan but that coin was too dark to be a keeper...
    It certainly was different though... >>



    Got any pics? What grade did PCGS give it?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭
    No pics, MS 64 only had it for a short time couldn`t get past how black it was...
    It was damn ugly!!!!image
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This may sound simplistic but look at it.
    Number one is there any sign of wear or rub. The coin cannot be a MS coin with either.
    Number two what is the quality of the strike, are all the details there and how clear and distinct are they. Weakly struck coins are usually limited to MS64 or lower.
    Number three what are the determents, scrapes, contact marks, and the like. A few small marks in non prime areas for a MS65. Clean rims and prime detail for a MS66, and very few to none for 67 and above.
    Number four is can the luster still come though by rotating the coin to the light. Almost all 67+ will have to have good to great luster.
    My experience is that number four can keep the coin below MS67 in many cases, usually 66 is maximum in my experience for a really dark coin.
    I will note that these are my observances with the coins that I collect that are almost all PCGS graded
    image
    My Current project....https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/160794
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭
    I looked at a double mint set 1956 in a Maryland coin store last year, obverses of the Denver coins were rainbows, the reverses were very very dark tiny leapard spot toning absolutely inundating the reverse. Under a microscope the toning spots were so advanced that the edges were pealing up - no joke. At the right angles the spots were actually a very very very deep red.

    Passed on the set because I couldn't imagine a grading service touching them.
    jeff
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • stinkinlincolnstinkinlincoln Posts: 2,733 ✭
    Personally Id errrr on the side of caution and be conservative.
  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,298 ✭✭✭✭
    Black like this one, you mean? (now resides with a fellow forumite)




    image

    image

    image

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>How can you grade a coin that is deeeeeeply toned ? >>

    coins can always be graded by surface quality other attraibutes can not be used.

    K S
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,164 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Yea this coin had zero luster...never have seen a slabbed coin that dark...
    I was a Kennedy fan but that coin was too dark to be a keeper...
    It certainly was different though... >>



    Unless you saw it when it came back fresh from PCGS, you can't be sure that it didn't turn in the holder. I once saw a PCGS MS65 1874 trade dollar that was jet black with zero luster. No way, no how did it get that grade looking like it did. The coin turned after it was graded - which may be the same thing that happened to the Kennedy half.

    Early Dollar Set
  • slipgateslipgate Posts: 2,301 ✭✭
    Guess what grade this one is?

    image
    My Registry Sets! PCGS Registry
  • nicetoning42107nicetoning42107 Posts: 1,162
    i tend to think in a case where the toning is hiding the marks luster becomes more important. Isn't it usually surface marks 40%, strike 20%, eye appeal 20%, luster 20%. In a case where the toning is covering most or all of the contact marks it would go like luster 40%, surface marks 20%, strike 20%, eye appeal 20%.

    This is based in my (admittedly limited) experience of sending in toned coins where surface marks were nearly nil. i would scratch my head when they came back MS65 rather than MS67. Only common denominator in these cases was the luster was rather muted.
    A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
  • InternetJunkyInternetJunky Posts: 2,329 ✭


    << <i>Guess what grade this one is?
    >>



    Hard to tell without a closer picture of the obverse obviously because of the toning. But I'll shoot for 65
  • ColorfulcoinsColorfulcoins Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭
    My experience (with roosevelts which are not that hard to find deeply toned) is that the services (more so NGC than PCGS as I have more experience with NGC) grade them very conservatively.....getting a MS67 is REALLY tough for the reasons mentioned herein.
    Craig
    If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭


    << <i>If it's too deeply toned, it's damaged and probably can't be graded. >>



    That's news to me.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If it's too deeply toned, it's damaged and probably can't be graded. >>

    EVERY identifiable coin can be graded

    i think you mean "probably can't be slabed".

    K S
  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭
    Yes dark (black) like that Mercury, I didnt have it graded so dont know if it turned, but it was void of color and luster...PCGS holder...
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    but it was void of color and luster

    PCGS would not grade a Kennedy MS64 if it was devoid of luster. Most likely it had some wild colors and they put MS64 on it as a net grade and then the darn thing turned.
    Early Dollar Set
  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭
    On this subject of toning I have 59 proof Franklin that has been slowly turning over the years. Obverse was a frosty DCAM / reverse proof. It is developing a purple haze over the portrait, and still continues to change. There was absolutely no toning on the coin what so ever when I bought it about 10 years ago. It was displayed in a glass frame exposed to flourence and indirect sunlight for years. The color now is a soft rusty purple, actually nice color, with only part of the frost visible on top of Franklins head. It was one of two proofs that started toning none of the others did, (16 coins). The toning on the 57 is simular but not as attractive and was one coin over in the frame. The light over the years through the glass hit the coins is just the right combination giving them color. I dont have a close up lens wont be able to truly capture the colors, but will post a pic later,(can`t access now). Thought it was interesting that the coin in the right conditions will turn in the holders, sometimes good...sometimes like the Kennedy I use to own. As I said earlier was surprised to see a Kennedy as black as the one I use to own..with no luster, no color...
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,574 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If it's too deeply toned, it's damaged and probably can't be graded. >>

    EVERY identifiable coin can be graded

    i think you mean "probably can't be slabed".

    K S >>



    Thanks. That's what I meant.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,463 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They just stick it into some play dough and check for details on the imprint. It's not rocket science. They could hire a blind man to grade with this new technology.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DGR = Dip Grade Retone...image
    theknowitalltroll;

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