Home Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum

Can you receive an unbiased review while the card is in another grader's holder? *UPDATE 6/19*

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience says that the answer is no.

A few months ago I sent in some cards in various other TPGer's holders, and while many did not cross at equal grades the results of 2 cards in particular were interesting.

MG: MINIMUM GRADE........................1963 TOPPS 167 JIM FREGOSI (was SGC 92 - asked for PSA 9)
MG: MINIMUM GRADE........................1963 TOPPS 192 CLAY DALRYMPLE (was SGC 92 - asked for PSA 9)
N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING.............1968 TOPPS 460 JIM LONBORG (was GAI 10 - asked for PSA 10)
N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING............1968 TOPPS 484 PHIL ROOF (was GAI 10 - asked for PSA 10)

GEM MINT 10.......................................1968 TOPPS 511 BILL KELSO (was GAI 10 - asked for PSA 10)
NEAR MINT-MINT 8............................1960 TOPPS 42 HOBIE LANDRITH (was SGC 86 - asked for PSA 8)
MG: MINIMUM GRADE........................1960 TOPPS 201 LARRY OSBORNE (was SGC 86 - asked for PSA 8)
MG: MINIMUM GRADE........................1960 TOPPS 222 AL LOPEZ (was GAI 8 - asked for PSA 8)
MG: MINIMUM GRADE........................1960 TOPPS 243 BUBBA PHILLIPS (was SGC 86 - asked for PSA 8)

The 2 cards deemed "evidence of trimming" are the interesting cards, because after the crossover attempt, I cracked them and subbed them raw. Here are those results:

MINT 9.....................................1968 TOPPS 460 JIM LONBORG
NEAR MINT-MINT 8..............1968 TOPPS 484 PHIL ROOF

How is it possible that they saw something while in the GAI holders that made them suspect trimming, but when submitted raw the cards apparently measured up fine?

For those that think there is a rational explanation for that, what if I did it happened in reverse? To illustrate what I mean let's use the 1963 Jim Fregosi card which is not suspected of being trimmed because they would have noted that like they did on the two 1968 cards. I wonder what would happen if that card was submitted raw? Well wonder no more:

N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING.............1963 TOPPS 167 JIM FREGOSI

While in the SGC holder the 1963 Jim Fregosi was not thought to be trimmed, so is it just a bias against cards in GAI holders? Is it a ploy to get more submissions? I wish I had the answers, but I am now officially stumped, and not sure if I will be renewing my recently expired membership.

Edited to add: Disregard my "many did not cross at equal grades" statement above since I tried to cross most at higher PSA grades.

Comments

  • lawnmowermanlawnmowerman Posts: 19,477 ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry about that Nick. That's pretty crappy to say the least.

    I never use the crossover service because of crap like this. You never, ever will get a fair shake
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,563 ✭✭✭✭
    PSA absolutely has a bias towards cards in GAI holders. I'm not at all surprised by those results. Your best bet for crossovers are from SGC.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've successfully crossed over SGC and GAI cards to PSA, and I've also had some SGC cards not cross over. So for me anyway, I can't say there's a definite bias against the other companies.


    Steve
  • GoDodgersFanGoDodgersFan Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭
    I like PSA, but the crossover service is a great marketing tool. It creates this assumption of a fair
    independent grading service when in reality they will downgrade your card in most situations.

    Very interesting thread and thanks for sharing this insightful information.
  • Bosox1976Bosox1976 Posts: 8,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Waste of $. Seems to be 10 bad stories for every success story.
    Mike
    Bosox1976
  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought of an experiment but never got to it or wanted to waste money I don't have. Purchase about 10 mid grade cards already in PSA holders. Crack and send to PRO or similar 2nd tier company. They will of course come back with decent grades. Send them to PSA for crossover. I would think PSA quality control would already be doing something similar to test their graders.
    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
    http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/

    Ralph

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I only crack and re sub that way.

    I want a fresh look at the card.


    Steve

    Good for you.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...I never use the crossover service because of carp like this. You never, ever will get a fair shake..."


    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    I would say, "You will never KNOW for sure, if you got a fair shake."
    But, if we don't 'trust' the grading company, we prolly should not be
    sending them cards.

    PSA has a very low confidence level in other graders' numbers. I think
    that accounts for the VERY strict look-see on the crossover service.

    They also have justifiable concerns about "warranty claims."

    Consistency is a long way off, when you have numerous eyeballs on
    an item that is graded, in part, subjectively.

    The PSE grading book (stamps) can be adapted to card-grading, but
    it will still take a long time to get to the desired level of consistency.

    Somebody needs to come up with a "compu-grading" platform. Short
    of having ONE person grade every card, that is the only way I can
    think of to always be consistent.











    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.


  • << <i>I only crack and re sub that way.

    I want a fresh look at the card. >>



    Same here. If the card is cracked out and submitted raw, the chance for any bias is eliminated.
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    Nick you have the same luck I did. NEVER put a lower grade than you want as you almost never get higher than your MIN. I tried to cross a GAI 3.5 T205 Cobb to PSA and I put a min grade of 2 and it came back a 2. SGC gave it a 50.

    I also have had 0 luck in bumping in PSA holders. I am still bitter about a PSA 8 1961 Pirates Team Card that I tried to bump and gave up after 2 tries sold it to a PSA dealer buddy who on the first try, popped it and got a PSA 9. I lost 1K on that deal, thanks PSA.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree about subbing raw, and have cracked and subbed raw MANY times in the past, but I wanted to take a crossover chance with the two 1963 SGC 92's "in holder" just in case. When neither showed evidence of trimming on their failed crossover attempt, I was more confident cracking them. Silly me.

    Just to be fair, when subbed raw with the 1963 Fregosi, the 1963 Dalrymple came back as a PSA 8.
  • MBMiller25MBMiller25 Posts: 6,057 ✭✭
    Nick, This is a very interesting and disturbing thread at the same time. Wondering out loud, I'm surprised someone hasnt created a computer program to grade cards based on parameters these TPG's put in print, thus taking all human elelments out of the equation. Stories like this aren't healthy for graded card companies.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Matt

    I don't find it that disturbing. The problem as I see it is the grading company can't grade
    a card through a slab in a way where it feels comfortable enough to cross at the min grade
    requested. If you request no min grade I would think they would cross more often.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • ssollarsssollars Posts: 932 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Nick, This is a very interesting and disturbing thread at the same time. Wondering out loud, I'm surprised someone hasnt created a computer program to grade cards based on parameters these TPG's put in print, thus taking all human elelments out of the equation. Stories like this aren't healthy for graded card companies. >>



    Being a programmer and a collector I've given the concept of using software to help the process many thoughts ever since I got into graded cards. I see something like a "Turbo Tax" interview type process that steps you through each phase. It could have scanning abilities to measure centering, tilt and diamond cuts. Would gave visual examples for grading corners, chipping, print defects, etc. It could even be made "smart" to include details on specific issues and specific cards. For example, for a highly counterfeited card it would additionally step you through an authentication process based on known examples or for cards that all have a known defect it would account for that. You would have an on going tally of the grade and the ability to view a summary of why it's that grade. There could do many other cool thing too...

    But, that would take time and motivation that I currently don't have! :-)
  • does this really surprise anyone? you all know how the game is played.
  • thunderdanthunderdan Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭
    No way PSA is unbiased when the card is in another company's holder. But, I've always just assumed that as a given. I've NEVER had any success crossing cards in other holders. Cracking them out yields very different (and much better) results. Every single time.
    image


  • RonBurgundyRonBurgundy Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
    About 3 years ago I sent in 6 cards holdered another TPG company. 1 crossed.

    I'll never do it again. I never even think about it now.............their crossover service doesn't even exist in my mind.
    Ron Burgundy

    Buying Vintage, all sports.
    Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
  • cardbendercardbender Posts: 1,831 ✭✭
    About five years ago I sold a friend my Aaron RC in a PSA 8 holder. I had that card graded myself at the '97 Cleveland National. Prior to selling it to him, most people that saw it thought it was a very high end card for the grade.

    When GAI appeared on the scene, my buddy liked the new half grades offered by GAI, he knew Mike Baker was the head grader and trusted his judgement and was probably the guy who graded the Aaron RC in the first place when he was the head grader at PSA back in the 1990's. So he crossed the Aaron into a GAI 8.5 holder. He was happy then and thought he added value to the card. He planned on keeping it in his collection.

    Well now that GAI is almost extinct, recently he tried crossing the Aaron back into a PSA 8 holder and PSA said it wouldn't cross. No explanation was given why it wouldn't cross to an 8. So now PSA is saying that the card is either trimmed or it's only a 7.5 or lower according to their latest grading standards.

    So my buddy is basically screwed.

    I told him to try SGC but he's never been a big fan of them (not sure why). Or another alternative is to pop the card out of the GAI holder and resub to PSA again and cross his fingers. That's an expensive lesson to learn about crossing cards into another companies holders. They may not cross back over if you need them to.
  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭


    << <i>I told him to try SGC but he's never been a big fan of them (not sure why). >>




    I'm not sure why I rejected the idea of subbing with them either. Or why I rejected the idea that they are a great grading company.




    "Everything you know is wrong"





  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭
    Ya know... the reason I gave up my most favorite sport of all time (figure skating), was because of the judges.


    Seriously though, I became disgusted with Boxing because of the judges. Marvin Hagler never lost a fight IMO. And Jimmy Owens gets props for being the only man to ever knock him down. Chuck Norris gets props for never looking at Champ Marvin sideways, a great move by the second greatest fighter all time.
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭
    When you submit a card for crackout and specify a minimum grade, PSA's policy is to only crack it out and slab it if they are completely sure that it will make the grade you requested. If the grader feels that he would need to examine something that can't be determined while it's in that slab, you're out of luck.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭
    Sorry, what I meant to say was...

    Can a great fighter expect to receive an unbiased view for another sanctioning bodies belt?


    No.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Rich (hi)

    How does PSA know it is the same card? Once it was crossed and placed into
    the GAI holder everything changed.

    If it is so high for the grade it should have no problem getting back into the PSA 8
    holder.

    Like Nick said the card needs to be out of the case for them to properly judge it.


    Possible expensive lesson? Yes, but your friend is the one that crossed it.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Nick (nam) I think the answer is yes you can get an unbiased review, you just won't get the min grade
    that you request, especially if it is a high dollar card or a high grade, or if a gap exists in value between grades.

    Even at the lower grades we have seen people not get cards crossed.

    I think it has everything to do with them not being able to see the whole card while slabbed that
    is the fault of cards not crossing to the grade that the person subbing wants.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>..........I think it has everything to do with them not being able to see the whole card while slabbed that
    is the fault of cards not crossing to the grade that the person subbing wants.

    Steve >>



    I will agree with that point Steve because my main problem was not with the few cards that did not meet my minimum grade. What I want to know is how can they see that the two 1968 are trimmed through the other company's holder, and then when those same two cards are subbed raw, suddenly they are not trimmed and given a number grade?
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Submitted raw they can see them better?

    I have had cards subbed raw that got EOT that the next time sent in graded.

    It is all a crap shoot. The bottom line is if you want to sell cards w/o the BS associated with
    selling raw sell them graded by SGC or PSA.


    They offer only an opinion. many here can grade as good as them. It is not rocket science.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Submitted raw they can see them better?........... >>



    If there is that much room for error, then "crossover" should not be one of their services. It's not like I paid them with twigs and berries.
  • fattymacsfattymacs Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭
    I've never tried to cross into a PSA holder, but here are my results crossing to SGC (I only requested min grade on the Killebrew, the rest were no min grade required).

    1 1951 Bowman 58 ENOS SLAUGHTER 40 (was BVG 5, minus 2)
    2 1951 Bowman 108 VIRGIL STALLCUP 84 (was PSA 5, plus 2)
    3 1951 Bowman 132 CASS MICHAELS 80 (was PSA 5, plus 1)
    4 1951 Bowman 209 KEN WOOD 50 (was PSA 5, minus 1)
    5 1951 Bowman 233 LEO DUROCHER 50 (was PSA 5, minus 1)
    6 1956 Topps 164 HARMON KILLEBREW 80 (was PSA 6, even)

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Nick

    I wholeheartedly agree with you.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, the saga continues. I have been called many many things in my time here on earth, and now you can add glutton for punishment to that long list.

    PSA remained consistent with their incorrect assessment of the Fregosi, but miraculously the Dalrymple has gone from a PSA 8 to evidence of trimming.

    N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1963 TOPPS 167 JIM FREGOSI
    N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1963 TOPPS 192 CLAY DALRYMPLE

    These two cards have now been to sunny California more than me (I've been there twice). Have 2 baseball cards ever made a man go broke and crazy at the same time? Stay tuned.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Surely someone must feel my pain. image
  • UphillUphill Posts: 359 ✭✭
    I feel it but I would have given up after one try.
    Jamie

    Looking for Charlie (Charley) Maxwell cards.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I feel it but I would have given up after one try. >>



    Sadly, I have not yet begun to fight. image
  • Bosox1976Bosox1976 Posts: 8,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
    Mike
    Bosox1976
Sign In or Register to comment.