PawPaul/Bushmaster8/Bcsican/Ronyahski/FC and maybe a few others....(yet another Franklin Thread!)
Kdog08
Posts: 771
Of course anyone else is welcome to comment...but I assume the names listed will be the "most" likely to respond! OK....so the 59-P toner in PCGS 66 sold for $950 on Teletrade....but the White FBL for the same date in the same grade did NOT! The last bid I saw was $3000.00...(PCGS price guide has it at $2750.00)! What do we know about this series today that we didn't know yesterday???
0
Comments
How high did the white FBL go b4 the auction ended? ( = sellers reserve)
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Is this comparing a toned non-FBL to a White FBL in the same date/grade?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
<< <i>Is this comparing a toned non-FBL to a White FBL in the same date/grade? >>
No...the toner was not FBL....the white example was. They were the same grade! (Both PCGS 66!)
The one that did not sell was lot 1493....found here!!!
BTW, the toned coin, being Ty2, I consider more common in MS66, than the Ty1.
But with FBL's the situation would be reversed. Ty2's with FBL are considerably scarcer than Ty1's with FBL.
However, due to the pretzel logic employed by whomever created the Franklin Variety Set at PCGS, and the omission of the Ty1 & Ty2 from the variety set, only a handful of die-hard Franklin collectors give two squirts.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
The MS 66 @ $950.00 is reasonable for the grade, coin, & obviously had a few
bidders with one that wanted it more...most likely for a registry set...
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
I think there were several hi grade , expensive Franklin's owned by the same person in the auction last night .
Whoever that person was had placede very high reserves - a 58-D in 67 FBL I think was reserved at 4 or 5 thousand -no way that was going to sell .
The 59-D in 66 FBL was also not sold due to too high a reserve .........
This market will not support those kind of levels right now - you try to get that much and you will get stuck with the coin .
The 59-D I won had a reserve of 1400 or 1500$ last auction ; and I made agesture to win it last nite @ 950$ when the hi bid was 900$..
I watched as the final seconds ticked down and nobody else bid , in fact nobody bid on it that I could see in the last 3 hours - hell ,
could be no one bid at all - i think the reserve was 925$ .
Now in case you did not know - a 59-P or a 59-D come along in 66 with cool color once in a blue moon , and if the coin has no
hidden problems and is as lusterous as the pix implies.......... I ripped it !
With Tomaska writing his book , and Leber out of action , and many of the Franklinland heavies ( Ronyahski, Bushblaster,Madmonk,etc)
selling instead of buying - coupled with fellers like Skyman and others who need only a few of the special dates to fill out their sets.............
there is virtualy no competition for such pieces like this one when they come on the market now .
That monster Rainbow 51-D I won @ Heritage couple months back for 2 grand would have got bid up over 4000 $ a few short years back !
Add to that the generic white MS-66 stuff , even rare date's with FBL - have little if ANY demand whatsoever at this time and you
got a Freakin' Franklin Free For All !!!!!!!!!!
I believe there are bargins galore for properly graded , attractive Franklins at this junction in time -
Jump in with both feet and give me some bidding competition for these little jewels
<< <i>since I won the '59 without FBL , i will throw in my 2 cents .
I thought you bid on that coin. If I was still collecting those darn things, I would have ben right there with you....
Let us know how it looks when you get it, I liked the color on that coin and to be honest a better value IMHO than a FBL.
john
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
yes , you too are one of the Franklin specialists that have swung over to the selling mode -
thus making my new purchases similar to shooting fish in a barrel
you and I bid up many a gem Franklin over the years
Teletrade yesterday, but I do not know how to
transfer the picture. Looks like a really nice coin though.
Camelot
<< <i>Toners are absolutely more popular than whitey's in this series.
How high did the white FBL go b4 the auction ended? ( = sellers reserve) >>
I think it rose to 3 grand and stuck there till the end
<< <i>I would have bid (higher than $950) on the toned 59-p had I had the money. Although if prices do come down I may end up wanting that date nicely toned and fbl! >>
..........hey - I don't have the money either !
<< <i> What do we know about this series today that we didn't know yesterday???
Here's my fifty cents worth:
The high grade White FBL market has been manipulated. It won't last.
You could make a general statement that high grade White FBL Franklins are rarer than the toned counterparts, and that would be true. But on a date by date basis, that falls apart. Prices for most dates in white examples over the last few years have been higher than toned. I think that is primarily due to some dealers advertising them as rarer, thus more expensive. But what you have are fewer collectors for white coins chasing even fewer white coins. I don't think that it is sustainable at the price differences we have witnessed, that's too small a world.
Take the 59, the date at hand. I guarentee you there are far more white than toned coins in 65 and 66 grade, yet many have been told over the last few years that white Franklins are far rarer. Hogwash! Show me (pic of) a rainbow 59 as nice as what PawPaul just ripped and I'll show you ten nice white ones.
The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said.
<< <i>
<< <i> What do we know about this series today that we didn't know yesterday???
Here's my fifty cents worth:
The high grade White FBL market has been manipulated. It won't last.
You could make a general statement that high grade White FBL Franklins are rarer than the toned counterparts, and that would be true. But on a date by date basis, that falls apart. Prices for most dates in white examples over the last few years have been higher than toned. I think that is primarily due to some dealers advertising them as rarer, thus more expensive. But what you have are fewer collectors for white coins chasing even fewer white coins. I don't think that it is sustainable at the price differences we have witnessed, that's too small a world.
Take the 59, the date at hand. I guarentee you there are far more white than toned coins in 65 and 66 grade, yet many have been told over the last few years that white Franklins are far rarer. Hogwash! Show me (pic of) a rainbow 59 as nice as what PawPaul just ripped and I'll show you ten nice white ones.
The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said. >>
3
WOW....thanks for the knowledge....so what advice can you give to us newbies that want to dive into this series....but have yet to buy one? I am guessing avoid FBL until the TPGs can agree, yes?
<< <i>WOW....thanks for the knowledge....so what advice can you give to us newbies that want to dive into this series....but have yet to buy one? I am guessing avoid FBL until the TPGs can agree, yes? >>
Yes. The value right now is in non-FBL. That pains me to say it because I focused my collecting more on FBL. I've sold far more than I have bought over the past few years. If I had any take backs, they are the non-FBL coins I sold. Example, I've sold a 61, 62, and 63 in PCGS 66 non-FBL, each with a pop. of less than 20. They are the best deals I can think of for the buyers. Two of them were white, so it's not a toned vs. white issue. They sold for a fraction of their FBL counterpart, and great looking coins.
Don't start and focus on the more common dates. The primary reason the newcomers get the impression that finding attractively toned Franklins is easy is because they see so many 58s, 58-Ds, 56s, etc. that are really great looking coins. Even some of the white ones for these dates come nice. Don't buy one of those first. Try finding a 59 like PawPaul just bought. Try first finding a 48-D, or a 52-D, or even a 63-D with great toning or a nice white coin that doesn't look like a hundred others out of a roll. You'll start to appreciate that they are much harder to find that most think. Like collecting Morgans, you want a great looking coin, buy an 81-S. Think you can find all the dates looking like that, think again!
Why can't I find the two I am missing at a real discount to to the PCGS guide?
Need two coins:
1959 66 FBL
1960 66 FBL
Some day I will replace my 53S 66 with an affordable FBL as well.
If anyone knows where i can get these coins, please let me know.
I have been after Rony to sell me his his 60 66FBL, but refuse to pay
a price so close to the PCGS guide.
<< <i>Well I won the 55 Half in PCGS PR-67 Cameo on
Teletrade yesterday, but I do not know how to
transfer the picture. Looks like a really nice coin though. >>
Here is Bear's coin:
auction link
[Readers that would like to try to link Teletrade images, bring up Teletrade in another browser window, right click on the photo, copy image location. Go back to the reply window, click on insert IMAGE and paste the link into the text
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
1959 66 FBL
1960 66 FBL
I sold a PCGS '59 MS66FBL at FUN, but not at a discount, it was a really nice coin.
Some day I will replace my 53S 66 with an affordable FBL as well.
I also sold a "53-S PCGS MS65FBL at FUN, at way, way over any trend price, and it was a MS65FBL, not an upgrade.
Camelot
<< <i>The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said. >>
As a new Franklin collector I agree 110% with the first statement, I'm collecting mine in Non FBL and have no intention of ever collecting them in FBL ---- to much money for nouthing.
The second point - I could say I would love to be a big dog on this pourch but a top 20 would make me happy just as my Kennedy set is right now, it's nice to sit there but no pressure being the top dog.
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
No comment ................. just reading
Young Numismatist ............................ and growing!
<< <i>
<< <i>The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said. >>
.......i'm reading this new post above and am thinking , " holy cow, who wrote this ? - where's this guy been hiding his self ? .......the words just flow and are pure gold ..." then I go back and see it's none other then the Master himself
<< <i>Since no one is buying high end Franklin FBL's now except me...
Why can't I find the two I am missing at a real discount to to the PCGS guide?
Need two coins:
1959 66 FBL
1960 66 FBL
Some day I will replace my 53S 66 with an affordable FBL as well.
If anyone knows where i can get these coins, please let me know.
I have been after Rony to sell me his his 60 66FBL, but refuse to pay
a price so close to the PCGS guide. >>
Coiny -
i went easy on you when you were trying to sell your NGC MS66 FBL 1951-D for 1750 bucks ........... you stated you had an offer @ 1400$ and then subsequently
sold it for that amount ............... I thought that pretty hard to swallow as a superb Rainbow toned PCGS MS-66 FBL 1951-D had just sold on eBay (that had a documented previous selling price on Teletrade @ 2400$ )
for a measly 800$ !
Can you give me the name of the buyer of your NGC piece ?
When you sell you talk up dubious auction results and tout the "high" PCGS Price Guide ..............
then when you attempt to buy - you want substantial markdowns off of the going rate's ?
what's up with that ?
<< <i>
<< <i>The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said. >>
As a new Franklin collector I agree 110% with the first statement, I'm collecting mine in Non FBL and have no intention of ever collecting them in FBL ---- to much money for nouthing.
The second point - I could say I would love to be a big dog on this pourch but a top 20 would make me happy just as my Kennedy set is right now, it's nice to sit there but no pressure being the top dog.
Dan >>
Dan - On the second point you're right, and a bad explanation by me of the point I was trying to make. I didn't mean to say to strive for the top of the registry ( you won't anyway with non-FBLs). I never did either. I was trying to make the point to stetch for those great coins for the grade when they appear. That's what will may you top dog.
And I noticed your sig line, 22 years retired from the Navy. My deepest respect and thanks to you.
and for 8 years before that they were headed down as well -
only thing that brought them to life was the TPG's implementing the FBL standard .........
now that designation has become so muddled , as he said, the buyer's have lost confidence and they stopped buying .
I do not believe Tomaska's new book will stop the hemorrhaging ; unless (as Rick himself has stated numerous times)
something is done to standardize the FBL designation across the board .
Bushmaster was elected to spearhead the petition and documentation to be presented to PCGS and NGC on the issue -
but I fear he has lost interest as so many have , and he's recently sold the majority of his Gem Franklin's
All , and then some ; strong MS-66 with surfaces you wonder how possibly could have escaped the minting and handling process and not gotten marks .......
and as a plus ; has bell lines that years ago could have got the nod !
So , strong luster- near mark free ,great strike with nice rainbow tones............
did I mention the luster ? that's the strongest point - crisp chrome-like ...........
i seen a lot of Franklin's - more then my share ;
and I gotta wonder how coins such as this one survive with such pristine surfaces-
was it plucked right off the press ? was it struck with discarded proof dies ?
did it sit somewhere unmolested for near 50 years ??
and how many fellers wanted to bid and for whatever reason did not ?
....letting it fall into my hands
And btw.....I bought my 1st Frankie over the weekend off of the BST...I'll let you know how I feel about it when I get it!
<< <i>and how many fellers wanted to bid and for whatever reason did not ?
....letting it fall into my hands >>
...
Had no clue you were a bidder that is one of two blue holder coins I had serious thoughts
about adding to my stash...the price could have been much higher...
glad you like it...it is a pretty looking coin from the pic, sounds like a monster in hand...
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
<< <i>Got it ! ............superb chrome-like A+ luster and colors stronger then pix.
All , and then some ; strong MS-66 with surfaces you wonder how possibly could have escaped the minting and handling process and not gotten marks .......
and as a plus ; has bell lines that years ago could have got the nod !
So , strong luster- near mark free ,great strike with nice rainbow tones............
did I mention the luster ? that's the strongest point - crisp chrome-like ...........
i seen a lot of Franklin's - more then my share ;
and I gotta wonder how coins such as this one survive with such pristine surfaces-
was it plucked right off the press ? was it struck with discarded proof dies ?
did it sit somewhere unmolested for near 50 years ??
and how many fellers wanted to bid and for whatever reason did not ?
I'm glad it turned out well for you. Wonderful color and luster on that coin, and the confirmation of lack of marks makes me think you sure stole that coin. Usually their pics aren't the best but there was something about the luster on that coin that sure showed up well even in a Teletrade pic. You bet if I was still actively collecting those things I would have been all over it and I bet a few others as well. You may have the last laugh on all of us if Franklins ever recover
You jumped to the wrong conclusions good buddy, so let me set the record straight at least with you.
I sold the 1951 D MS66 1951 D for $1,425 to drptt on May 5 2009 via ebay (check it out).
I believe this buyer got a GREAT deal and mine was acceptable. If I wanted to keep it up for sale longer I think it
could have sold for more.
When I buy, my goal is to purchase at the lowest price I can find for the right coin.
When I sell, my goal is to sell at the highest price I can within the competitive environment that exists.
This my friend Paul, is called capitalism, a cornerstone of the American society.
I am proud to be a capitalist and an American.
-------------------------
sometime's I get carried away
by all means - buy low and sell high
<< <i>Glad to hear that....the colors are obviously gorgeous....but I am glad to hear you say that the luster is all there and then some. Awesome!
And btw.....I bought my 1st Frankie over the weekend off of the BST...I'll let you know how I feel about it when I get it!
kdog - when you get it ; make sure and let me know how much you want for it
<< <i>
OK....so the 59-P toner in PCGS 66 sold for $950 on Teletrade....but the White FBL for the same date in the same grade did NOT! The last bid I saw was $3000.00...(PCGS price guide has it at $2750.00)! What do we know about this series today that we didn't know yesterday???
A 1959 P and a 1959-D PCGS MS66 FBL both just sold in a Bowers Auction ;
the P brought 828$ and the D 805$............
a nice premium .
It's the 95% of the remaining pop's that don't have to-die-for toning that are selling for pennies on the PCGS dollar ; if they sell at all .
<< <i>Properly graded , sweetly colored Franklin's .....such as the one's you sell and get strong money for - are eagerly sought and bring
a nice premium .
It's the 95% of the remaining pop's that don't have to-die-for toning that are selling for pennies on the PCGS dollar ; if they sell at all . >>
I agree. The ones you have Chameleon always seem to bring a nice premium and there always seems to be a market for them.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>
<< <i> What do we know about this series today that we didn't know yesterday???
Here's my fifty cents worth:
The high grade White FBL market has been manipulated. It won't last.
You could make a general statement that high grade White FBL Franklins are rarer than the toned counterparts, and that would be true. But on a date by date basis, that falls apart. Prices for most dates in white examples over the last few years have been higher than toned. I think that is primarily due to some dealers advertising them as rarer, thus more expensive. But what you have are fewer collectors for white coins chasing even fewer white coins. I don't think that it is sustainable at the price differences we have witnessed, that's too small a world.
Take the 59, the date at hand. I guarentee you there are far more white than toned coins in 65 and 66 grade, yet many have been told over the last few years that white Franklins are far rarer. Hogwash! Show me (pic of) a rainbow 59 as nice as what PawPaul just ripped and I'll show you ten nice white ones.
The FBL market is in serious trouble.
The primary reason is because of the TPG inconsistency in grading. Franklin collectors entering the market over the past serveral years are confused, and with good cause. Who knows what a real FBL is any more. Years ago the likes of PawPaul, Bushmaster, jhdfla, the heavy hitter dealers like Leber, Tomaska, Wooten, and the TPGs, could all agree, with an 80-90% confidence level what is an FBL coin. Nowadays, it's hard to even get a majority consenus. Why? Because the TPGs have changed their mind, and frankly their opinion is the only one that counts. So why would somebody pony up so much more money on the 59 in FBL than the non-FBL? They won't because the confidence is not there.
"...Where you goin'?...Where's everybody goin'...", Bette Midler from The Rose.
There are monster Franklin collections out there. Most, however, have been completed and the same sets have sat on top of the Franklin registry for years. It takes two to tango and I'm not aware of anybody out there now shooting for the top. Every dog has its day. Franklins have headed down for about eight years now. They won't go down forever. PawPaul is lucky I'm not in the game right now, I'd have run him up on that 59! He's right, if you ever wanted to jump in and shoot for the top of the Franklin market, I'd do it now before just a couple figure it out before you do.
The market is terribly inefficient. Especially Teletrade.
Take the prices of these two 59s with a grain of salt. Especially Teletrade prices. Enough said. >>
............the above words ,written with wisdom by Franklin guru Ronyahski , bear re reading