I stopped by a B&M yesterday and picked a cherry.
SanctionII
Posts: 12,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
Found a 1964 proof set with a Cameo 1964 half. I cut it out of the cello and it is dazzling. No blemishes at all. Just a perfect type coin.
Cameo 1964 halves are very beautiful coins.
The guy helping me said he had to check with the boss to get a price. He also said that the price would be "above retail". I was surprised. However the boss was not around and the guy was getting frustrated. I said how much. He said $30.00. I said that is way, way above retail and that at best a current retail price guide would value the set at about $15.00. I said wholesale was much less than $15.00. He talked to a couple of other guys working behind the counter. They looked at the set and said it was a mint set. I said no, it is a proof set since it only has 5 coins and is in a yellow envelope that has 1964 PC printed on it, whereas the 1964 mint set has ten coins and is in a white envelope.
Finally they conceded the point, looked at the July 2009 edition of Coins magazine and saw a retail price of $14.75. That is what they charged me and what I paid. They had no clue they were being cherrypicked.
After I paid, they guy showed me a need acquistion. It is two capital plastic holders containing proof sets and SMS sets from 1952 to 1970. The two holders are encased in frames adn you can only see the front of the coins. I looked and saw a 1952 nickel, a 1956 cent, a 1958 half, a 1959 cent and a 1960 half with outstanding cameo devices contrasted against deep, deep mirrored fields. I plan to go back to ask them If I could take the holders out of the frames to look at the reverses. If the reverses look like the obverses I will then ask if I could buy the five coins as singles and replace them with other examples of the same 5 coins I would provide to them. Most dealers would say no to this, but you never know unless you ask. If they say yes, then five more cherries will land in my lap.
BTW the B&M is a combo coin and jewelry shop where they "buy low", "sell high" and do not have extensive knowledge about coins. I have cherrypicked them many, many times. I was there a few months ago and saw them buy junk silver at 6x face when other places were paying 10x face or more. So I figure they should rightfully be cherrypicked.
Cameo 1964 halves are very beautiful coins.
The guy helping me said he had to check with the boss to get a price. He also said that the price would be "above retail". I was surprised. However the boss was not around and the guy was getting frustrated. I said how much. He said $30.00. I said that is way, way above retail and that at best a current retail price guide would value the set at about $15.00. I said wholesale was much less than $15.00. He talked to a couple of other guys working behind the counter. They looked at the set and said it was a mint set. I said no, it is a proof set since it only has 5 coins and is in a yellow envelope that has 1964 PC printed on it, whereas the 1964 mint set has ten coins and is in a white envelope.
Finally they conceded the point, looked at the July 2009 edition of Coins magazine and saw a retail price of $14.75. That is what they charged me and what I paid. They had no clue they were being cherrypicked.
After I paid, they guy showed me a need acquistion. It is two capital plastic holders containing proof sets and SMS sets from 1952 to 1970. The two holders are encased in frames adn you can only see the front of the coins. I looked and saw a 1952 nickel, a 1956 cent, a 1958 half, a 1959 cent and a 1960 half with outstanding cameo devices contrasted against deep, deep mirrored fields. I plan to go back to ask them If I could take the holders out of the frames to look at the reverses. If the reverses look like the obverses I will then ask if I could buy the five coins as singles and replace them with other examples of the same 5 coins I would provide to them. Most dealers would say no to this, but you never know unless you ask. If they say yes, then five more cherries will land in my lap.
BTW the B&M is a combo coin and jewelry shop where they "buy low", "sell high" and do not have extensive knowledge about coins. I have cherrypicked them many, many times. I was there a few months ago and saw them buy junk silver at 6x face when other places were paying 10x face or more. So I figure they should rightfully be cherrypicked.
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Comments
<< <i>So I figure they should rightfully be cherrypicked. >>
And the rationalization begins.
And this makes you different from them how?
BTW the B&M is a combo coin and jewelry shop where they "buy low", "sell high" and do not have extensive knowledge about coins. I have cherrypicked them many, many times. I was there a few months ago and saw them buy junk silver at 6x face when other places were paying 10x face or more. So I figure they should rightfully be cherrypicked. >>
............share the wealth
I saw a coin which [for me at least] justifies me paying full retail for the proof set.
If I tried to sell the cameo half, those who have no interest in cameos would probably offer me something back of melt. For those who like a raw 90% silver cameo half, they might offer me $20.00 for it.
I would be willing to sell the coin. Make me an offer and I will consider it.
I have no problem cherrypicking a coin from a B&M, at a show or otherwise from a dealer.
<< <i>I have no problem cherrypicking a coin from a B&M, at a show or otherwise from a dealer. >>
Nor do I, but I wouldn't come on the forums bragging about the "many, many times" I've cherrypicked from one particular dealer. Kinda makes you look like a shark at feeding time.
<< <i>Great pic by the way
When the owner got back to the shop he probably chewed the worker out for selling his expensive cameo half proof set for retail.
<< <i>So you do to them what they do to others.
And this makes you different from them how? >>
Because they "should" know
<< <i>So I figure they should rightfully be cherrypicked. >>
Glad to see someone was put in charge of deciding this.
Sean Reynolds
P.S.: I only opened the thread because I saw all of the responses and thought maybe you finally got a camera.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I have cherrypicked the combo coin and jewelry shop before. I retract "many, many times" from my prior comment.
Interesting how no one has stated what price they thought I should have paid for the proof set; nor has anyone stated how much they would be willing to pay me to purchase the raw cameo half?
<< <i>Good thing that you conned the worker to sell it to you for the retail price of a ordinary 1964 proof set.
When the owner got back to the shop he probably chewed the worker out for selling his expensive cameo half proof set for retail. >>
If it was anything other than a common proof set, the owner should have had the price clearly marked on it.
Seller be A-ware
hip hip hooray Sanction.
photo appreciated
More power to you Sanction, some people just like to get themselves riled up for kicks.
Do unto others as they would have done unto you.
None of the holier than thou responders to this thread have offered to pay me more than what I'm asking for any of my coins. Nor do they suggest how much more than the asking price SanctionII should have paid the retailer. Seems like everybody is always looking for a bargain. When someone finds a rip we debate if they deserve a "You Suck" or not. Many here have found cameo coins in proof sets, improperly described or photographed coins on eBay, sellers selling VAMs w/o knowing and other rips. They usually get applauded. Sheesh, I guess everybody got up on the wrong side of the bed today or something.
How many of you have ever said: "Gee sir, it looks like you are not charging me enough, may I pay you extra for that coin?"
<< <i>My BS meter is beeping loudly. The hypocrisy needle is reaching the end of the dial.
None of the holier than thou responders to this thread have offered to pay me more than what I'm asking for any of my coins. Nor do they suggest how much more than the asking price SanctionII should have paid the retailer. Seems like everybody is always looking for a bargain. When someone finds a rip we debate if they deserve a "You Suck" or not. Many here have found cameo coins in proof sets, improperly described or photographed coins on eBay, sellers selling VAMs w/o knowing and other rips. They usually get applauded. Sheesh, I guess everybody got up on the wrong side of the bed today or something.
How many of you have ever said: "Gee sir, it looks like you are not charging me enough, may I pay you extra for that coin?" >>
The dealer said the price was $30. SanctionII talked him down to $15, then posted (to paraphrase) "not only did I beat him up on the price but I cherrypicked him too!". No one is saying he should have offered more than the dealer was asking. Several are saying it was poor form to strong-arm the dealer on price then crow about what a rip he got.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>My BS meter is beeping loudly. The hypocrisy needle is reaching the end of the dial.
None of the holier than thou responders to this thread have offered to pay me more than what I'm asking for any of my coins. Nor do they suggest how much more than the asking price SanctionII should have paid the retailer. Seems like everybody is always looking for a bargain. When someone finds a rip we debate if they deserve a "You Suck" or not. Many here have found cameo coins in proof sets, improperly described or photographed coins on eBay, sellers selling VAMs w/o knowing and other rips. They usually get applauded. Sheesh, I guess everybody got up on the wrong side of the bed today or something.
How many of you have ever said: "Gee sir, it looks like you are not charging me enough, may I pay you extra for that coin?" >>
The dealer said the price was $30. SanctionII talked him down to $15, then posted (to paraphrase) "not only did I beat him up on the price but I cherrypicked him too!". No one is saying he should have offered more than the dealer was asking. Several are saying it was poor form to strong-arm the dealer on price then crow about what a rip he got.
Sean Reynolds >>
<< <i>im a cherrypicker... rare die varieties, VAMs, etc... but you definitely pulled a no-no. Cherrypicker's etiquette (yes, we do have it) includes that you dont argue about prices... EVER! Take it or leave it. The fact that they thought it was a mint set is irrelevant, just like im not gonna haggle over $15 about whether or not a scarface is unc or circ when im picking it. Its shut up and buy it, or dont buy it. >>
I agree with you, I don't buy much in person any more but the most I would say to a dealer if I found a nice cherry is "How much do you need for this?" after which I'd pay his named price.
The only time I can recall making an exception was when I found a rare Type-I (1913-S) two-feather Buffalo nickel. The date was worn away, but the dealer had graded (and priced) it as VG. I argued for a bit that a VG coin should at least have a legible date, but in the end I paid his price....
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My BS meter is beeping loudly. The hypocrisy needle is reaching the end of the dial.
None of the holier than thou responders to this thread have offered to pay me more than what I'm asking for any of my coins. Nor do they suggest how much more than the asking price SanctionII should have paid the retailer. Seems like everybody is always looking for a bargain. When someone finds a rip we debate if they deserve a "You Suck" or not. Many here have found cameo coins in proof sets, improperly described or photographed coins on eBay, sellers selling VAMs w/o knowing and other rips. They usually get applauded. Sheesh, I guess everybody got up on the wrong side of the bed today or something.
How many of you have ever said: "Gee sir, it looks like you are not charging me enough, may I pay you extra for that coin?" >>
The dealer said the price was $30. SanctionII talked him down to $15, then posted (to paraphrase) "not only did I beat him up on the price but I cherrypicked him too!". No one is saying he should have offered more than the dealer was asking. Several are saying it was poor form to strong-arm the dealer on price then crow about what a rip he got.
Sean Reynolds >>
I agree.
But more troubling to me is the implication that the OP knowlingly took advantage of the some worker while the boss was away.
If the boss came back and fired the guy for selling this too cheap, would that still be OK?
What about going to coin shows, waiting until some dealer leaves his table and then trying to convince his table help / junior assistant / spouse to sell you something and see if you can rip it really cheap? Is that cool too?
They may have really taken advantage of you and you are happy. That would be a hoot.
<< <i>Congrats on the cherry pick. I wish i could find a cherry. It would not bother me in the least to buy a 100 dollar coin worth 1000 or 10k. Over the years i have been screwed over by others to where i feel i should get my turn at doing the screwing. LOL >>
What a world if that is what we aspire too, screwing someone else because we feel we've been screwed in the past.
As of yet no one has stated how much I should have paid for the set, nor has anyone told me how much they would purchase the raw cameo half from me for. Seems like a reasonable request to me, but no one has taken up the challenge yet.
Multiple employees of the store thought the 1964 proof set was a 1964 mint set. The guy helping me said that the buy price would be above retail and that he would have to check with the boss to get a price. The boss was not around. I know the boss and he would have known it was a proof set and not a mint set. He also would have said sell it for retail (which he has many times before) had he been there and had the guy asked him. The guy helping me also said $30.00 to which I replied that $30.00 was way above retail and that full retail on the set in published coin magazines was probably $15.00. The guy looked in the 7-2009 edition of Coins and saw a price of $14.75. He looked in the 2010 Redbook and saw a price of $16.00. I showed him the marking on the envelope that states "1964 P.C." and said it is a proof set, not a mint set. I told him that a 1964 mint set comes in a white envelope and has 10 coins, not 5. He said he would sell the set for $14.75. I assume that the shop made at least a 50% profit on the resale of the set to me.
I have been a customer of this jewelry/coin shop for 10 years. I know the owner and the employees. I have bought numerous individual coins, proof sets, mint sets and complete collections from them over the years. They let me look through their proof and mint sets and pick which ones I want. They ask me what I am looking for and why I look at each coin so closely. I have told them on multiple occasions over the years that I like cameo proof and SMS coins from 1970 on back and that I go to shops and shows looking for raw cameo proofs and SMS coins to acquire as upgrade coins for a set of 1950-1970 cameo proof and SMS coins I have been working on for years. I have told them I like these cameo coins and that I will pay full retail for sets that have cameos in them. I have even shown them some of the cameos in my collection. They are pleased to see me when I stop by because they know that I will pay retail for something I want.
This shop buys jewlery, coins, precious stones, and precious metals from the general public at low, low, low prices. They make money by buying low and selling high. They also operate as a pawn shop. They know something about coins, but do not have specialized knowledge about coins. They view proof and mint sets as widgets [as do many dealers and collectors, including many forumites]. They do not spend the time/effort needed to acquire more specialized knowledge. They may look at cameos and think "what is the big deal" [like many people do].
So to those who have taken offense that I spent $14.75 (plus tax) for a 1964 proof set with a raw cameo half in it (and/or that I posted this thread to let people know of my good luck) I offer my apologies.
To those who gave me kudos for finding a cherry yesterday, I offer my thanks.
One day soon I will learn how to post pictures on the forums
In both situations, buyer had the power of knowledge, while the seller was somewhat disadvantaged. But in both scenarios the sellers were agreeable to sell. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If anything, I think the savvy collector is probably less culpable for the "rip" b/c the Dealer is a professional and should know what he is selling. On the other hand, I think the Dealer ripping the little old lady is less fair, b/c the Dealer and the little old lady are not on a level playing ground. Just MHO.
Congrats on the pick Sanction II!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Maybe Sanction should have meekly asked...."I'm sorry to trouble you Mr Shop employee but could you pretty please reduce the price to redbook 2x retail?
Maybe on a classic rarity, asking the seller to reconsider the price might require a little forethought and massaging but a proof set that legitimate shops are buying at 30% BACK OF BID? You really think this jewelry shop even paid that much? It's pretty obvious to me that the buying of this set wasn't even handled by the owner or he wouldn't have priced it as a mint set if he had even laid eyes on it.
I am glad, though, that you didn't pull a "MadMarty" with your cellphone
(anyone remember THAT?)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Just checked in again.
As of yet no one has stated how much I should have paid for the set, nor has anyone told me how much they would purchase the raw cameo half from me for. Seems like a reasonable request to me, but no one has taken up the challenge yet.
>>
Actually, Top50SetBuilder stated his opinion that a cherrypicker should never haggle on price. I'm pretty sure that means he feels you should have paid the $30 the dealer was asking for.
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What I do know is what "sounded" to be a mean-spirited conquest and a haughty air of satisfaction that you had "gotten over" on the coin/jewelry store.
It "sounded" boastful and overly smug. That is what I was somewhat disappointed in after reading your post.
If this was not your intention...then it somehow leaked through in your post.
Perhaps you did not intend to come across this way but apparently that is how some of us read you.
to talk people down with the price, and sees value where others see
ordinary. these are all skills i value.
<< <i>SanctionII...I don't know you from a hole in the ground. You may be a fine upstanding person.
What I do know is what "sounded" to be a mean-spirited conquest and a haughty air of satisfaction that you had "gotten over" on the coin/jewelry store.
It "sounded" boastful and overly smug. That is what I was somewhat disappointed in after reading your post.
If this was not your intention...then it somehow leaked through in your post.
Perhaps you did not intend to come across this way but apparently that is how some of us read you. >>
I read the post the same way and got the same vibe - rubs me the wrong way - but who cares, that's just how I feel.
Sanction, you do as you see fit - apply those yankee skills.
The place he is speaking of, if it is the one I think it is, actually likes moving coins in an aggressive manor like this. They pay way below wholesale and want to keep dealers/collectors coming in. Their goal is to move a good volume of inventory fast on a regular basis. These guys would rather get 18 inventory turns a year at 100% profit off each turn than get one coin that they may make 1000% profit or more. They don't want the additional paperwork, time and guesswork of what grade it might come back at from a PCGS or NGC. They just want to move the coins...fast and keep loyal longterm customers like Sanction coming back with the hopes of finding "cherries"
There is one other place it could be and Sanction if you went there, given their business practices...RIP AWAY (I rarely go in that establishment because they annoy the heck out of me the way they treat new hobbyists or those trying to sell loved ones collections)!
Either way it sounds like you got a nice piece for your collection or Children's ed fund etc.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
That being said, if the set in question was that valuable to the owner, it should have had a price tag on it commanding a premium. The fact it didn't tells me that it was to be sold at retail. Once retail was determined, the transaction took place - I don't see any problem here.
There are some other facts that we don't know. First of all, with no pics, we really can't see how nice the cameo half is. Perhaps it is only moderately contrasted or has a hidden milk spot and not really worth much. Then again, perhaps it is a monster dcam or accented hair variety worth much more than retail. This is the reason why nobody has spoken up as to how much the OP should have paid. The fact he paid retail seems more than fair to me.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
If I go to a car dealership and talk the dealer down a few thousand dollrs I am going to be smug about it and boastful too.....so how does that make me or the OP a bad person or a person of deminished morals lacking scruples etc?
<< <i>So you do to them what they do to others.
And this makes you different from them how? >>
Statements like this belong in this................
<< <i>im a cherrypicker... rare die varieties, VAMs, etc... but you definitely pulled a no-no. Cherrypicker's etiquette (yes, we do have it) includes that you dont argue about prices... EVER! Take it or leave it. The fact that they thought it was a mint set is irrelevant, just like im not gonna haggle over $15 about whether or not a scarface is unc or circ when im picking it. Its shut up and buy it, or dont buy it. >>
<< <i>In this day and age it is OK and I mean a big OK for ANYONE to ask a dealer to rethink his price. IN what language that is cloaked is up to the buyer but to even suggest on a $10-20 item in a jewelry store(that has mark up in the 100's of %) that SANCTION had to "PAY THE PRICE" is ludicrous.
>>
Yes, it's fine to ask a dealer to rethink a price.
But it's being obnoxious to be breathing down a [possibly uneducated] employee's neck about getting a price, then complaining when he finally gives you a number and trying to chip him down on a $15/$30 set.
You're no more entitled to get a price on the set than that employee was to get the price from the boss.
I reread my OP and can see how it could be viewed negatively (cherry picking and boasting about it). I do get excited when I find a nice raw silver cameo proof in a proof set that I can buy at bid or even retail and have posted about making such acquistions.
If anyone is interested in acquiring a 1964 proof set in OGP containing an Accented Hair half, let me know and I will pick it up for you. I expect that the shop would charge retail for the set. I would buy the set and you could send me the purchase price I paid plus shipping.