What's wrong with this 1885-CC GSA Morgan...Error?...

DieClash

...NEWP and it's a very nice looking coin, except for whatever is going on in the field in front of Liberty's lips. Is this the rare, sought-after, "tobacco-spitting Liberty of '85" that everyone needs to complete their VAM series?

What's interesting is that there are alot of hairlines in and around the indented area, or "phenomenon". What's also interesting is that all of the stars, some of the Letters/Date and all of the denticles have what appear to be die polish marks on the ends/sides/edges of the devices but not on top. Look at the close-up images of the "phenomenon" and notice, especially the stars' edges have plenty of line marks, but none on the top star-surfaces! Seems to me if this were a heavily polished die, wouldn't the fields also show these lines since the fields are the highest surface parts of the die? And if it were 'whizzed' wouldn't the whiz marks show more prominently on the most raised surfaces of the devices? Keep in mind this is a coin in a GSA plastic holder!

The fields of this coin are impeccable, except around the so-called "phenomenon". I've never seen anything like this. The "wad of tobacco" is definitely indented or concave on the surface of the field, Planchet error??. Any help/insight is appreciated

commoncents05

Looks like it started as a planchet issue, and someone at the GSA tried to clean it up.

-Paul

DieClash

<< <i>Looks like it started as a planchet issue, and someone at the GSA tried to clean it up.

-Paul >>



That's what I thought too. But would they have tried to exorcise the tobacco spit after it was coined? The indentation is definitely visible, even without magnification. And from the images I think you can detect pretty clearly the horizontal lines within the surface "crater". Around the edges of the crater, it's difficult to tell from the images, but it appears that the rims are somewhat raised above the surface of the surround field. Is that possible? If so how?

Thanks for opining Paul

DieClash

OK, one Last thought: Could this have been a strike through that the GSA decided to remove before sealing it in plastic? Or is this a common occurrence with a known explanation the I am somehow missing?



<< <i>

>>

fc

are you sure those "hairlines" are really not raised? die polish?

i am seeing some lines that are raised on the crater area and continue
onto the fields.

i highly doubt the "gsa" folks would take the time to clean up coins
when they sold them by the boat load.

but i see what you mean by the stars and i cannot explain that part.

DieClash

<< <i>are you sure those "hairlines" are really not raised? die polish?

i am seeing some lines that are raised on the crater area and continue
onto the fields.

i highly doubt the "gsa" folks would take the time to clean up coins
when they sold them by the boat load. >>



fc, I don't know for sure. They certainly look like die polish lines to me. But if they were, wouldn't they also be more prominant in the fields than on the devices? As I said, the fields of this coin are impeccable, except around the edges of the devices and espicially the indentation! I am 100% confident that the "phenomenon" is definitely an indented crater. This one's got me flummoxed.

DieClash

fc, I took another look with the scope and the lines in the crater and just outside the crater in the field are raised! So now that begs the question, what happened to this die that required such severe die-polishing to correct. I think I can understand how a die cud is formed, which would produce a raised surface on the coin and not an indented one. So in this case maybe how does a raised surface get "added" where it doesn't belong?

Rob85635

It almost looks as if a drop of some corrosive landed on the coin and stayed long enough to etch that hole and then someone wiped it off. Perhaps some sort of cleaning material intended for some other coin or some other use and a stray drop landed on that poor Morgan?? Just guessing.

fc

all i can think of is that something fused to the die and the mint workers
tried there best to polish it down because it would not come off.

but still the stars bother me.

fc

<< <i>It almost looks as if a drop of some corrosive landed on the coin and stayed long enough to etch that hole and then someone wiped it off. Perhaps some sort of cleaning material intended for some other coin or some other use and a stray drop landed on that poor Morgan?? Just guessing. >>



i do not think that is correct because the lines in the crater area are
raised.

DieClash

<< <i>...

but still the stars bother me. >>



Me too! And the lines there on the stars are also raised! Like I said, I've never seen anything like it. But there has to be a logical explanation.

mbogoman

This is the kind of thread that makes this board so interesting. Absolutely fascinating, and educational to boot! Thanks!

yellowjacket

It appears someone attempted (and poorly so) to remove a spot from the field.

Garrow

Steve27

" Keep in mind this is a coin in a GSA plastic holder!"

Yes, but does it say "UNCIRCULATED" on the holder?

yellowjacket

GSA encapsulated coins were sold "as is." There is no guarantee the surfaces weren't altered prior to packaging.

Garrow

AUandAG

Planchet defect?

bob

fc

<< <i>Planchet defect?

bob >>



normally defects do not contain raised die polish lines inside that area.

Steve27

<< <i>GSA encapsulated coins were sold "as is." There is no guarantee the surfaces weren't altered prior to packaging.

Garrow >>



Not quite true, the coins were sorted into uncirculated and circulated examples based on condition (i.e. uncirculated coins which were toned or harshly scratched were placed in the holders for circulated coins).

MrEureka

I would guess that this is a "strike through", and that the lines were caused by the impression of the debris into the coin, and also by the movement of the debris as it was flattened out in the coining process.

jmcu12

strike through is my input. Cannot tell from the photo how deep it goes...

Rob85635

Ah, I see it now. The lines inside do appear to be raised rather than recessed, as well as the lines in the field. I am befuddled (Is that a word?).

JungleFever

It's so tempting to say it's just a spittin image of a Morgan, but I won't. Based on the bunch of gsa's I've bought and sold over the years, I don't think the folks who put them in the
holders were all that careful about what the coins looked like. I still have a collection of them, but I'm slowly selling them off as I don't think they reallly represent anything special
in the history of Morgans. CC's are everwhere. These just supposedly happened to be found after a long time being lost. Possibly true, but..........so what?

fc

<< <i>I would guess that this is a "strike through", and that the lines were caused by the impression of the debris into the coin, and also by the movement of the debris as it was flattened out in the coining process. >>



does this guess also include the disturbance on the fields next to the crater?

this pic seems to show raised lines in the crater going out into the fields which
i am unsure could have happened by a strike through. Also note we have two
main directions of the lines.. one direction in the crater and one on the fields and
through the crater to the other side.

then add in the fact that the stars show something also going on which has to
do with die polish which makes me not think of a strike thru.

But your guess is as valid as any other and appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

DieClash

<< <i>" Keep in mind this is a coin in a GSA plastic holder!"

Yes, but does it say "UNCIRCULATED" on the holder? >>




Yes, it is in an Uncirculated holder. Except for whatever is going on on the obverse, this is a very high-grade unc. IMO. Very few hits/scrathes on Liberty's cheek area, lot's of very nice luster, virtually flawless fields, although not CAM and the reverse is near perfect!

Cam40

struck-through piece of something there. the impression almost looks like a piece wood.

why would those stars bother anyone?
its not post-mint damage if thats what anyone is thinking...

fc

<< <i>struck-through piece of something there. the impression almost looks like a piece wood.

why would those stars bother anyone?
its not post-mint damage if thats what anyone is thinking...
>>



i will admit i know squat compared to some others here but this is
the first time i have seen die polish lines go from the field right into
the strike though area.

has anyone seen that before in a strike through? if something was
between the die and the planchet.. why would a die polish line show
up? it was hard enough to form a crater yet soft enough to allow a die
polish line to get through?

otherwise i am out of guesses.

as for the stars.. it is just a sign that mint workers were polishing this
die in multiple places... good evidence that it really got worked on.
just seems odd they only got into the stars and did not touch the
fields. that must have been a special tool to get into those small places.

Broadstruck

Doesn't look like a cough... you can see that projectile was launched from her nostril.

DieClash

<< <i>

<< <i>struck-through piece of something there. the impression almost looks like a piece wood.

why would those stars bother anyone?
its not post-mint damage if thats what anyone is thinking...
>>



i will admit i know squat compared to some others here but this is
the first time i have seen die polish lines go from the field right into
the strike though area.

has anyone seen that before in a strike through? if something was
between the die and the planchet.. why would a die polish line show
up? it was hard enough to form a crater yet soft enough to allow a die
polish line to get through?

otherwise i am out of guesses.

as for the stars.. it is just a sign that mint workers were polishing this
die in multiple places... good evidence that it really got worked on.
just seems odd they only got into the stars and did not touch the
fields. that must have been a special tool to get into those small places. >>




The stars bother me too. That was a very special tool that worked on those stars if you ask me. At this point if there are any experts willing to tackle this mystery, I'm willing to ship it at my expense for free expert analysis. Just PM me

DieClash

<< <i>Doesn't look like a cough... you can see that projectile was launched from her nostril. >>



She does look like she's snorting something doesn't she!

WoodenJefferson

I’ve seen these type of planchet flaws on Morgans before, possibilities of a lamination or gas bubble trapped under the surface that becomes exposed during/after annealing or even falls out after being struck.

That’s what may have created the lines around the divot, loose metal from the layer just flowed out and after time took on a slightly different texture and color.

Rest assured this is a mint produced anomaly, I would not go so far as say it is an error, more of a planchet flaw related damage. And yes, they were packaged as is and nobody messed with this coin.

Tis better she is snorting out, than in.