Lesson for newbies, learn from my mistake

DeepCoin

Before I found this board I was getting back into collecting was unaware of the pitfalls. So I bought a couple of raw coins from Paul Sims. After gaining more knowledge and finding this board I learned that buying from the big advertisers in Coin World and other publications has some serious risk involved.

As a means to demonstrate my folly, I sent in a 1920-D Mercury dime to be graded. Of course it came back cleaned. Live and learn. They are covered by their sales agreement, so I am not seeking recourse, but rather to educate others from my mistake. I am just glad that I only bought a couple of coins that I will now give away to someone or sell on eBay as cleaned.

As they used to say in Hill Street Blues "Be careful out there"

CarlWohlforth

I bought an awesome BU, GEM, PQ gold piece. A few years later I had it graded. AU55. Duh!

lordmarcovan

Paul Sims, huh? Don't feel bad. For me it was a 1903-O $10 Liberty from them, about a decade ago.
"Select BU' evidently is another term for EF45 in their dictionary. So I sent it back and told them to send me another one, instead of asking for a refund. After the second time, when I got another EF45-AU50 coin, I asked for a refund. They sent me one, but I ate the return shipping both times. After the first time, you'd think I would have learned my lesson.

TomB

For me it was an EF45 '27-S SLQ in 1976 from Harold B Weitz. Of course, it was a harshly cleaned VF30.

Bcsican

Deep coin dont feel bad WE ALL HAVE BEEN THERE maybe somethimes to often, but a lesson none the same......

DeepCoin

Thanks Bscican,

I dont really feel all that bad, given that it is not that much money. I just want to try and save someone else from the same mistake. I have learned so much here and been helped by so many that I thought I might share something that could help a new collector.

Fairlaneman

Deep Coin: Help a Old Collector.DO NOT BID !!

DHeath

Well Deepcoin,

I also succumbed to the lure of beautiful stock photos in a Coast to Coast coin catalog, specifically 2 1932-D Gem BU Washington Quarters. They were priced about $500 each, so I new they were probably MS62's although their policy stated ANA MS63+. Both coins looked terrible, with wear on the cheek and worn eagle breast feathers. I called and requested an exchange. They sent me two nicer looking coins that had too much luster. Upon submission, both were bodybagged as whizzed. I sold them as cleaned and recovered about half of my investment. Recently I have purchased a 1934-S Peace dollar on ebay that was advertised as AU-58+. There was a stock photo, with an assurance from the dealer that the grade was correct. I emailed first to see if there was a refund policy, and was given 5 days. The seller had over 300 positives with no negatives. The opening bid was $300, and that was good enough to buy the coin. Now I know that a real 34-S AU-58+ would approach $1000, so I wasn't expecting too much. Turns out the coin was a VF-45 at best. I re-contacted the seller, and he informed me that he had never seen the coin, but was selling it for a client. I offered $140 or a return, and he accepted the $140. I only hope to get what I pay for with ungraded coins, and I really dhould know better, but sometimes greed gets the best of me.

DMWJR

Well, well, well. Glad to know I'm not the only putz that got whacked by a big glossy advertiser. I got taken by Paul Sims and Skyline about a year ago in the same way. When I saw the pictures and the prices, my eyes turned into those large pinwheels that have the circle getting smaller and smaller. BAM -- tossed my money right out the window. I really haven't had the heart to put them on EBay and sell them with a proper description to see if I could get any of my money back. I just get that "socked in the gut" feeling. I think they prey on our egos too. Nobody really wants to stand up and admit to being taken.

Also, I thought it was strange at first when I called and they wanted to know what ad I was ordering from. I thought it was just a routine advertising question at first. Then I figured out that they were making sure that they complied with the absolute MINIMUM requirements of the publication. The first coin I ordered was from a Coin World ad. It barely made the BU mark. It was ugly enough to knock a buzzard off a s--twagon at a hundred paces.

Then I orders a couple of more from their flyer which stated they were "BU" but this time they meant "Borderline Uncirculated." Talk about deceptive advertising. They also have a WIDE definition of "borderline." Don't take their crap though. I'm not so sure their stated policies would hold up if you got taken on a sizeable purchase. Just because they say it doesn't make it so. I would write them a nasty lawyer letter and see what they would do.

Doug

Yogi Berra -- "Never make predictions, especially about the future."

GRFN

We all make mistakes. The game is never make the same one twice!
DeepCoin leads by example. Thx.
My 3 year old boy takes mine to "show and tell" the pre school
You never know he my even get the bug
Graham N

Oak

Yep, for me it was Weitz also. I spent my allowance money on five overgraded and whizzed coins from him in 1979. I quit collecting not long after that and just returned to collecting recently. I sold most of those coins a few months ago for about what I paid 22 years ago. Oh well, if I hadn't spent the $$$ on coins I would have blown the money on bubble gum.

Typetone

Thanks to guys like DeepCoin, I never got taken by any of the big ad people. My then 8 year old youngest son did order once from Littleton. For $2.50 he got 100 BU pennies, a cloth glove, a penny album, a magnifying glass, and a bunch of coins on approval. Even at 8 years old he found the price/quality combination on the approvals to be hilarious.

I did have an expereience several years ago buying some raw Washington's on eBay for my middle son from a PCGS Authorized dealer who resides in the California Desert. Over a few weeks I bought a half dozen raw Washingtons advertised as MS66 coins. Most were better dates but not rare dates. I found I was winning them at $5 to $12 when those dates should have gone for $50+. Whoa! were we getting a deal. Well when they arrived they were 64s at best, and some not even that good. . Wasn't even worth sending them back. Just auctioned them off at the Anchorage Coin Club as plain BUs. Surprise, most of them sold on that basis for $5 to $12. Who says the markets are not efficient. By son now affectionately refers to that dealer as B*ll S*it (Fill in the Dealers Name).

Thanks to those who warned me about Big Ads guys when I was getting started. Thanks for sharing DeepCoin.

Cheers

Greg

etexmike

I'll bet if everyone who collects coins is honest, we all have at least one "horror" story to tell.

And, if we're real lucky just the one, about a coin purchase that turned out to be not exactly
what we had expected.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

---------------

etexmike

jcping

> which stated they were "BU" but this time they meant "Borderline Uncirculated."

If you got a "BU" is "Borderline Uncirculated", your luck might not be too bad. To me, the "BU" coins they sent me is "Been used."

keithdagen

Man, I made out like a bandit last time I ordered from Sims. But then, I ordered a 10 pack of modern gold commems at bulk rates. 6 PR-69DC's and 4 MS-69's.

I was always tempted to order some of the other stuff from their catalogs, but each time, I stopped, because I figured that the prices were just "too good to be true." And based on the experiences of others, they were.

Keith

vam44

Come on guys, everyone knows that BU stands for: Beat Up or Butt Ugly,depending on the paper it is advertised in.This coin may not be slabbable at any grade, save for ACKUCRUSTY,where upon they would designate it a minimum of Ms-66 or Pf-63.

Keep in mind that alot of these fine dealers are ANA members,a few even grace the roster of PNG, Weitz for one!

mrcommem

Don't feel too bad about it Deepcoin. I bought a 48 piece BU classic commemorative set from Coast to Coast Coins back in 1996 for $7500. About 15 of the coins were truly uncirculated, but most were dull, lifeless, au sliders, cleaned, or whizzed. I was sent the whole batch back without problem and got my $7500 back. I was lucky. I never have bought a coin that wasn't certified since.

quarterjack

Deepcoin, Paul Sims 1932S washington Superb Gem BU, purchased in 1984 for $275. Still have it in a body bag in my desk as a reminder of who not to deal with again!Oh by the way, ANOTHER PROUD member of the ANA, Give me a break! It's nice to have some expensive JUNK laying around. LIVE & LEARN.


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Dave

gmarguli

With so many horror stories about Paul Sims you'd think the ANA would have the balls to kick his ass out of the organization. How pathetic are they.

You'd also hope that Coin World and the other newspapers would not accept his ads since he is screwing so many collectors. I guess the money is more important that ethics.

pontiacinf

ive been ripped so many times i believe PT BARNUM is behind me pointing me out

raycyca

I thought I was the only one. Paul Sims was the BIG #$@%^*^# who ripped me off also! Only took once but I got my money back. As usual, they were slow to give back the money. I purchased what was supposed to be Unc Kennedy halves that look like they were pulled from the slot machines! How can we address this to the ANA? I guess they are right: If you see some seller of any item shouting how good their deals are or advertising in BIG pages/letters, there's probably a reason: RIPOFF! Thanks all for sharing.

mansco

Everyone's horror stories make me fell good about my decision two years ago. I only buy PCGS certified coins. I won't even touch an NGC anymore. About three years ago, I decided to upgrade my complete 50 piece commemorative type set and my almost complete US Mint type set that I hda been putting together on and off since the early eighties. I decided to get some of the raw sones slabbed, they came back in body bags due to cleaning. So I decided to sell all the raw ones. I got a decent price. So I decided I'd only buy certified coins. Of the remaining coins I had left, I decided to upgrade a few commems from MS63 to 64 and 65. The NGC's sold for a much bigger discount than the PCGS's. What bothered me was that the NGC's are sold for the same price as the PCGS's. I quickly figured out that dealers use greysheet to sell and bluesheet to buy. So from that point forward, I decided I wouldn't buy anything unless it was in a PCGS slab. I try to buy the coin and not the slab. But if I see a coin a like and it's not in a PCGS slab, I just admire it and move on. The bid ask spread on non-PCGS coins is just to wide.

RELLA

I have purchased two coins from Sims myself; 1892 and 1893 Commem Halves. This was about 14 years ago if I remember correctly (I hope it was Sims...too much beer in college did in a virtual plethora of my memory cells). I bought them as Choice BU coins, my father thought they were both AU sliders (not cleaned though) and thought I should return them both. I feel bad bad about it now, but in the end I resold them raw to a new coin dealer in my hometown at about a 50% profit (not too much money considering what I paid, but I was only 16 or so at the time). I guess now that I am older I believe a lot more in full disclosure on prices I paid when it comes time to sell coins.

What I hear in this thread is more recent than my expreience and I feel that the coins I received were not as overgraded as what others have encountered more recently. Do you think that these advertisers have become more bold as the years have gone by and they have continued to fleece the unwary of their hard-earned dollars?

RELLA