Interesting.... re: slabbed ancients

CIVITAS

There seems to be a misconception that ancients certified by NGC are guaranteed to be genuine. They in fact are not. I was not aware of this until today when I was checking up on several invoices of world coins that I had sent in. I happened to see the link for their ancient coin services and wanted to get the full details. This is not to dissuade anyone from using their services, but I know they get recommended here as a guarantee of authenticity, when they apparently are not. Just another informed opinion, as per their terms:



<< <i>NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. NGC Ancients will only holder coins it considers genuine at the time of submission, but it cannot guarantee the authenticity, genuineness, type, attribution or date of any coin it holders. Unlike modern coins, which often benefit from well-documented, scientific parameters for the verification of authenticity, there rarely is conclusive data for ancient coins, and generally there is no surviving documentation to verify production characteristics.

Almost without exception, ancient coins have been recovered from burial, either under land or water. Some recoveries date back centuries, while others are more recent. Even in ancient times, coins were counterfeited, copied and imitated. If a particular submitted coin can positively be connected to a specific find or recovery that is documented, or is on track for documentation, it will be so designated if requested to do so by the submitter. However, even with these coins there can be no guarantee of their genuineness.
The dating and attribution of an ancient coin (the basic identification of a coin’s place of origin, issuing authority, date of issue, design elements, specific variety, etc.) is oftentimes uncertain or is a matter of scholarly conjecture. Multiple and different attributions can coexist, each simultaneously finding acceptance within the numismatic community; in these cases NGC Ancients will use the attribution it considers most valid. New research or archeological evidence may challenge or change the consensus about an ancient coin’s attribution, date, identification and even its authenticity. Consequently, the opinion of NGC Ancients on these matters is subject to change with the introduction of new information, or of existing information of which its grading staff was unaware at the time of holdering. Every effort will be made in good faith by NGC Ancients to properly attribute ancient coins, but no guarantee is made as to these qualities.

Therefore, with ancient coins NGC Ancients will only guarantee the grade. It is recommended that buyers purchase ancient coins from sellers who offer unconditional lifetime guaranties of authenticity, and who otherwise stand behind their sales. >>



From their website: http://www.ngccoin.com/ancients/guarantee.aspx

covers

Josh - I have absolutely no problem with the fact they don't guarantee authenticity. Let us face it, an opinion on any coin is a still only an opinion. New information becomes available and "best" opinion about authenticity can change with new research. It is worshipping a false god to think that a guarantee is anything more than an insurance policy. The users of the coin services that guarantee coins pay for that insurance and it doesn't mean that the underlying opinion is any better.

I prefer expert groups (or individuals) to tell me who has examined the item and what that person's opinion is. It should be up to the owner to determine the extend to which he/she values that person's opinion.

I would prefer, for example, if David Vagi looks at a coin for NGC that his name appear somewhere to differentiate that slab from one without his name.

PS - None of the stamp or cover certificates / slabs are guarantees either (I am an expert examiner of such items for several expert groups). PSE used to list the names of examiners for postal history items and they do not anymore. It devalues the certificate in my opinion.

CIVITAS

I think it's the right move too, Richard, for all of the reasons you mentioned. There have been many instances where a lack of authenticity was proven years after coins were deemed authentic. It seems the only "guarantees" are from reputable dealers. Of course, those are only as good as the ethics and longevity of the dealer standing behind the guarantee.

spoon

Interesting idea. I think that would definitely go a long way to boost confidence.

Actually, it sounds similar to the Italian system - it's more self-slabbing by dealers and isn't exactly foolproof. But for reputable dealers it does help boost confidence in a market where there is too often cause for suspicion. See here for some examples.

zeebob

<< <i><snip>...it's more self-slabbing by dealers and isn't exactly foolproof. But for reputable dealers it does help boost confidence in a market where there is too often cause for suspicion. See here for some examples. >>



That's quite a link! Does it look like the "self slabbed by reputable dealer" coins shown in the link are in soft (PVC rich) flips with rivets? Very interesting method of locking a coin down in a flip!

covers

I find self-slabbing an abhorrent practice.

No expert should certify (expertise) an item that he has a financial interest in. In fact, the leading philatelic expert society (AIEP) recently threw out a long-standing expert (Roger Calves) for this practice.

A guarantee is different kind of certificate and means simply that a dealer will buy back if some other expert group disagrees with opinion. It should not be confused with an expert opinion.



By the way, my ancients are here

cacheman

Not to derail but I have recently seen where NGC is slabbing Goetz medals and labeling cast pieces with MS designators, no variety designation, and not even a metal content. It's a good thing they weren't guaranteed as two of the three I've seen contain faked recasts.

Unfortunately the uninformed will migrate to these slabs because in their eyes the material has been 'authenticated' by NGC when, obviously, that isn't the case at all.

Slabbed medals, what a crock.

spoon

Yeah, I'm certainly not endorsing the Italian model. For the most part, with the reputable folks at least, the Italian system is more a guarantee than certification though. I'm just pointing out some variants, but still agree with your original points. Self-slabbing in general does pose too much risk for sliding into something like NNC. But as we've all seen even the bigs have their issues.

Doogy

<< <i>Not to derail but I have recently seen where NGC is slabbing Goetz medals and labeling cast pieces with MS designators, no variety designation, and not even a metal content. It's a good thing they weren't guaranteed as two of the three I've seen contain faked recasts.

Unfortunately the uninformed will migrate to these slabs because in their eyes the material has been 'authenticated' by NGC when, obviously, that isn't the case at all.

Slabbed medals, what a crock. >>



the medals are covered under their guarantee:

"All U.S and World coins — including but not limited to Pattern coins, Varieties, Tokens and Medals, Mint Errors, American Colonials, Confederation coinage and Private and Territorial Gold — are guaranteed for grade and authenticity only. "


If you know of fake Goetz medals, i'd let them know; especially considering you're an expert in the area. If they can track them down, they should buy them off the market. Taking proactive steps when these things happen, are good for the hobby and for the credibility of the grading service. The same thing is happening right now on the US coin forum. There is a $75,000 PCGS graded coin that is a blatantly tooled coin. They refuse to take it off the market, even though they are fully aware, and Heritage even yanked the coin from a previous auction due to the damage. It isn't good for a company to turn a blind eye to their mistakes, and hopefully these guarantees carry more than just words on paper.

Doogy

I can certainly understand their position, although I'll bet that many would feel pretty secure in knowing that David Vagi is the finalizer. On that note, i was told that he personally sees every ancient come through the door with a stated value that exceeds $100

it was really only a matter of time before one of the 'big 2' started grading ancients, and i'm glad to see someone is going it. Although it seems ironic that big money ancients really only came on the market after NGC started grading them. Is this a chicken or egg analogy?

Were folks too wary to part with six and seven figures on an ancient before they NGC put their reputation and eyes behind it? Would there have been two $1million dollar plus (and 1 coin at $900k, with more in the mid six figures) ancients had NGC not started in this realm? we all know how the power of plastic gives much relief to collectors and investors; was this the move that catapalted these coins into the stratosphere? I would imagine it is anyone's guess really

CIVITAS

I'd say the NGC examination of the coin had next to nothing to do with it's huge realization. The exceptional quality and rarity, combined with a heated ancients market hungry for anything of high quality caused it. I would say, when you're putting down $200.00 for a common date Morgan dollar, you're a believer in the plastic. When you're putting down $2,000,000 for any coin, you're a believer in the coin, and couldn't care less what NGC has to say about it.

Doogy

<< <i>I'd say the NGC examination of the coin had next to nothing to do with it's huge realization. The exceptional quality and rarity, combined with a heated ancients market hungry for anything of high quality caused it. I would say, when you're putting down $200.00 for a common date Morgan dollar, you're a believer in the plastic. When you're putting down $2,000,000 for any coin, you're a believer in the coin, and couldn't care less what NGC has to say about it. >>



There are still a LOT of investors that play at this level, and care very much what the grading service has to say.

with US coins, PCGS and NGC are in a near dogfight to get these coins in their holders, and thus bragging rights. With world coins, NGC pretty much has a monopoly on six and seven figure coins. Contrary to perception by some, these coins are often not purchased by astute collectors, but investors looking to diversify their holdings and wealth. Having them slabbed and graded goes a long way into the liquidity of the coins for these folks, and makes them much more comfortable buying them versus raw examples.

Lynch

<< <i>I would say, when you're putting down $200.00 for a common date Morgan dollar, you're a believer in the plastic. When you're putting down $2,000,000 for any coin, you're a believer in the coin, and couldn't care less what NGC has to say about it. >>



That is a very astute observation.

coinnuttius

Thanks for pointing that out, it is a great reminder that ultimately the burden for everything really does end up in your lap: I actually did not read their terms. I'm always dying to get a decent owl or a Lydian electrum stater (and a slew of really cool other ancients). My reason for not owning one is that I cannot tell if it was made 2500 years ago in Greece or Lydia or 25 days ago in Bejing or Bulgaria. Maybe when I retire I get enough time to get into it.. until then it's all "pass".