FS: Stunning PCGS 1897 MS66RD Indian Cent>

BWRC

"Pink Champagne" "SOLD"

GRANDAM

"Stunning" is the correct word for this coin,,,,,,,

JMHO, GrandAm

renomedphys

That color is exceedingly rare. I think I've seen it on one or two Lincolns from the 1930's, but they were MS68 common dates... and STILL worth many thousands. This is probably a one-off color for the entire IHC series. VERY cool!

RBinTex

Beautiful coin

BUT

I sure wish there were a 1 coming out of the neck.

STONE

<< <i>Beautiful coin

BUT

I sure wish there were a 1 coming out of the neck. >>


I'm sure that can be arranged, for a price

Earlycoin

Sweet coin! Do you have layaway! Or maybe a sign outside my house!

DMWJR

WOW, nice mark up!

EagleEye

This is a very memorable coin. I recall it when it sat in a old rattler holder. Some coins just stay in your memory. This is one.

lusterlover

What was the grade when it was in the rattler

RBinTex

Wasn't it a 65RD?

renomedphys

<< <i>WOW, nice mark up! >>



Interesting comment...

66RB

Beautiful color on that Indian cent.....just gorgeous!




<< <i>That color is exceedingly rare. I think I've seen it on one or two Lincolns from the 1930's, but they were MS68 common dates... and STILL worth many thousands. This is probably a one-off color for the entire IHC series. VERY cool! >>



Always liked this work done by shylock...wish there was one for Lincolns too.

TONEDDOLLARS

<< <i>WOW, nice mark up! >>

That sure does imply something.

RBinTex

What is the mark up exactly?

shylock

Looks like the Ally and Joshua Walsh example, nice Link

shylock

In fact it is the Joshua coin...no two IH's could have so many identicle markers.

How the hell did it get so pink?

BWRC

"Pink" No mystery here?

Here is the description of this coin when the coin was purchased in the PCGS MS66RD rattler holder in 1/06 . Was pink then and still is. Rick and I owned this coin long ago when in the rattle holder. I was happy to buy it back again.

Heritage description Jan 6, 2006

1897 1C MS66 Red PCGS. This coin has the look, if not the technical quality of an even higher grade. Fulsome pink-red luster blankets both sides with a pleasingly frosted texture. The sharp strike is free of even the most trivial criticism, and the eye appeal is among the strongest that we have ever seen on a business strike 1897 cent. Housed in a first generation PCGS holder, and an important bidding opportunity for the Registry Set collector. Population: 13 in 66 Red, 1 finer (11/05).

pennyannie

DMWJR- I am late to the party, what do you mean? I gather the economy did not bring this coin down?

BTW it is a real nice coin.

DMWJR

Hopefully, my comment prompted the buyer to ask the question before purchasing it.

One reason the dealer posted to these boards it to get 4-5 people here who will say "nice coin!" who haven't actually seen the coin and are basing their opinions solely on the picture presented by the dealer. It's one thing when it is a collector posting a recent purchase for his collection, and another when it is a dealer promoting a coin. If a dealer is going to post a coin for sale on a message board, I think any questions about the coin or its price are fair game.

The coin sold April 29, 2009 for $3,737.50 at Heritage (Her. Auction 1124, Lot 1152), and was listed here a week later for $6,000.00. That's a 60% markup. Shylock is correct that it is the Walsh coin, which sold for $6,325 in January of 2006. Today's market is a different one than three years ago.

I haven't seen the coin in hand. Draw your own conclusions.

BWRC

I have let this post play out and now I would like to reply with some reasoning for why I would sell a PQ 1897 PCGS MS66RD IHC for $6,000.

When I decided to bid on this coin in the Heritage Signature 4/29/09 auction I was excited to have a chance to buy a PQ for the grade 1897 MS66RD Indian Cent that Rick Snow and I owned in a rattle holder in the mid 1990's. It was now in the "Ally and Joshua Walsh " blue label holder but was just a stunning as ever. I did my homework and decided I would bid up to $4,500 plus the juice of 15%, so in other words I would gladly like to own this coin for $5,175. That is "my BUY PRICE for this coin" If the new owner wants to sell it back to me I would pay a minium of $5,175 for the coin.

On January 6th 2006 Ally and Walsh paid $6,325 for this same coin in the old rattle holder? Here is the Heritage comments from their catologer about this coin in that very auction.

1897 1C MS66 Red PCGS. This coin has the look, if not the technical quality of an even higher grade. Fulsome pink-red luster blankets both sides with a pleasingly frosted texture. The sharp strike is free of even the most trivial criticism, and the eye appeal is among the strongest that we have ever seen on a business strike 1897 cent. Housed in a first generation PCGS holder, and an important bidding opportunity for the Registry Set collector. Population: 13 in 66 Red, 1 finer (11/05).

Also checking the current PCGS population report the number of MS66RD is still at 13! no new coins have been added since November 2005.

Hmm, sounds like the catologer thinks this coin is knocking on the door to a higher grade? I would have to agree, it may not go MS67RD but it is about the nicest 1897 MS66RD I have seen. Rick Snow, i believe would agree and he told me send it to him anytime as he would "photoseal" this coin. Rick Snow's comments about this coin 5/9/2009 on this message board about this very coin. "This is a very memorable coin. I recall it when it sat in a old rattler holder. Some coins just stay in your memory. This is one"

So the bidding opens on Lot 1152 at $3,000 and I put up my hand to bid $3,250, I was surprised and thought I was bidding on the wrong lot when the auctioneer said "sold" and pointed to me. I had just bought this stunning coin for $3,737 including the buyers fee.

Next is Lot 11531897 MS66RD This coin in my opinion was a notch down in quality from the coin I just bought for $3,730. Lot 1153 hammers at $6,000!! plus the juice for a total price of $6,900.

In summary I will say this.

I will sell a quality coin for a "Fair Market Value" I am sorry if the coin "feel through the crack at this auction" as I would have paid alot higher for the coin.

PCGS PRICE GUIDE is $6,500
LOT 1153 next lot after this coin 4/29/09 1897 PCGS MS66RD sold for $6,900!!
This coin sold to the previous owner for $6,325 on January 6, 2006
I sell this coin for which I believe is a fair market price of $6,000.

I have another coin on the message board which is a 1910 MPL cent in PCGS PR64RB which I paid "to much for in auction $2,300" and since It didn't upgrade on first attempt I am selling it for a loss at $1,950.

If I find a $1,000 fair market value coin on the ground and my cost basis is $0 at what price should I sell this coin for?? I think the vast majority of my customer's feel I have treated them fairly with our dealings and I will leave it at that.

Comments welcomed

illini420

I definitely agree that a ton of very nice coins fell through the cracks at the last auction. Just way too many coins being auctioned at once I believe and not enough bidders with available cash to absorb them all. If I had the free cash flow ready to go at that auction, I would easily bought a few more than I did at the hammer prices, including a few IHCs. Of course, If I had actually bid, who knows what the final price would have been. In the example presented here, if only one other person challenged the OP, it would have hammered at $5k plus. I too got a few steals in my opinion just because no one else bid against me. Does that mean when the time comes to sell/upgrade my collection that I owe it to the next person to sell below market??? I don't think so.

robec

I know of a very well known Franklin dealer who bought at least a couple of mine in the January Heritage auction. Within a couple of weeks of the auction, they appeared on his website. One was purchased from Heritage for $2000 and it was marked up to $8000+ on his site. The other was purchased for $1500 and sold from his site for close to $5000. I had them on the BST for a ton lower than his selling price with no takers.

DMWJR

illini420, I could be wrong but I don't think you are a dealer that promotes coins on this board weekly. I'm also not saying a dealer or seller shouldn't ask FMV for any given coin. My point is weighing factors to determine FMV if you are buying a coin.

The value of a coin is for the seller and the buyer to decide. Any collector who buys an expensive coin from a dealer at a 60% mark up from what it sold publicly at auction the week before, should be sure they are paying "fair market value" for the coin, which includes many factors one of which is what the coin has sold for recently. That is not always conclusive of FMV, but merely an indicator.
Brian, I think you would agree with that. Likewise, a buyer should not base a purchase on how many kudos a coin photo gets on a message board either. I have knowingly bought coins from others (including Rick) when I knew that they paid a lot less for the coin at a recent auction. I never bemoaned the fact, but tried my best to be the most informed buyer I could be about the true FMV of the coin. Time will tell whether I was right or wrong. Collectors shouldn't base a purchase solely on a photo either. If you look at the Heritage photos from the Walsh sale, the sale two weeks ago, and then Brian's photo, all three photos look very different.

Brian, thank you for conducting yourself like a professional in this thread. I'm not attacking you, but raising what I feel is a legitimate issue for registry collectors on this board. I'm also not saying the coin is not "all there." It may have been a great business deal for you, and the ultimate buyer really paid the FMV for the coin.

illini420

No Doug, I'm not a dealer... "not that there's anything wrong with that"

I think you make some good points... as a collector I recently bought a coin from a very prominent dealer which had been in a Heritage auction less than a month before for about 70% of the dealer's asking price. Of course I would have rather bought it in the Heritage auction but I just didn't notice it in the thousands of coins being offered and even if I did, would have been hesistant to bid strongly based on the Heritage photos. The dealer's presentation of the coin was much much better than Heritage and I was ultimately able to strike a deal around the middle of his original asking price and his purchase price from Heritage just before. I was happy (but not exactly thrilled ) to pay the mark up of a few hundred dollars since without the dealer's expertise and presentment of the coin I would have never noticed it and a 15-20% return to the dealer was not outrageous in my opinion.

Now if in the same case the dealer was asking in the range of double the price I could have theoretically paid only weeks before, it would have to be a very very speical coin for me as a collector to go for it. From what I've read here, this Indian Cent may be one of those very special coins and as the OP pointed out, another person really wouldn't have been able to get the coin for under $4k since the OP would have bid it up to over $5k anyways... many of the recent selling prices don't seem to be accurate representations of market prices since a market wasn't really made with only a single bidder.

EagleEye

Great coin! It is well within reason to have people list the past sales of a coin, in fact that only adds to the security of knowing what you are buying. The fact that this coin sold cheap in an unreserved auction which held another one, also unreserved, shows me that a patient buyer can snag a bargain now and then. Should a bargain purchase become a bargain-priced sale? Maybe, maybe not. I snagged a bargain in the sale and sold it afterwards to a very good client for a small increase, leaving perhaps $10K on the table. I also bought a coin that you can't pry out of my hands for a $25K profit. No way no how.

This coin is indeed a memorable one. Congrats on the sale and congrats to the new owner.

ProofCents

Caveat Emptor

curly

I think this thread points up the fact that it's good business to hire a dealer that is proficient in your area of coins to act as your agent in an auction. This way you get the coin you want at a good price and you only have to pay around a 5% or so markup to the dealer. There were a lot of nice IHCs in the CSNS auctions. Using a good dealer who knows what they are doing can save you some cash.

pennyannie

DMWJR- Thanks for the reply. I had figured that but did not bother to check into the recent sales. I agree with you on most points.

As far as Brian stating he was willing to pay XXX for the coin and ended up buying it cheap. I have no issue with that but it feels better when a collector does it verse a coin dealer looking to flip it a week or so later. This world runs on money and those that have it or can make it fast seem to live a little better. I kind of feel sorry for coin dealers.

I have said it before, that dealers buying from auctions that are open to the public to bid does not make a lot of sense to me. Car dealers have "dealer only auctions" and other avenues to secure their inventory as do most professions where the regular buying public can not go to secure the inventory to sell.

Someone that decides they need a coin that just sold a few weeks earilier for 3250 and is willing to pay 60 percent mark up probably deserves the reaming they just got. You can not protect everyone from everything. It will be a long time before that coin will be worth what the collector just paid. He is buried. Coin collecting is billed as a gentleman hobby with morals and ethics. LOL

commoncents05

Without reading the recent posts, I will toss in my two cents. What is a coin worth? A coin is worth what someone is willing to pay you for it. A potential buyer should do their homework and find out what the coin sold for recently, but in general, a dealer's purchase price should not be relevant to the price they are going to sell it for.

-Paul

EagleEye

Because money and credit are relatively tight, there are incredible opportunities right now in coins, real estate, stocks, time-shares, travel deals, etc....

If you look at Brian's purchase as if it was a piece of property or an undervalued stock, rather than a coin, you may change your perspective on the deal.

lasvegasteddy

my lil 2 cents here..,

gosh...sorry to see the bashing towards you there brian

you're A+ in my book and always will be

sweet 97' injun

ajia

My 2 (IHC)

It is a joy for me to read where values are brought up, and in this case a rather large gap between purchase and selling prices, and Brian conduct's himself in a very professional manner.
He states his case, a strong one IMO, for his selling price (IMO buyers at the auction where looking for 'RED' IHC, not "Pink") and pretty much leaves it at that.

Doug comes back with some reasoning behind his comments, all very valid.

This is how it should be conducted, professionally.
No mud slinging, name calling, etc.

Looks like, in the end, someone bought an outstanding coin at FMV, whatever it turned out to be.

Thanks guys for an enjoyable read.

EagleEye

Dear Pennyannie, I'm confused. I totally see where you are coming from in many of your posts, but you wrote the following:

Someone that decides they need a coin that just sold a few weeks earilier for 3250 and is willing to pay 60 percent mark up probably deserves the reaming they just got. You can not protect everyone from everything. It will be a long time before that coin will be worth what the collector just paid. He is buried. Coin collecting is billed as a gentleman hobby with morals and ethics.

I would point out that if you wanted this coin, and were bidding for it in the auction you would have bumped up against Brian and you would have ended up paying $5,750 or he would have owned it. The only way anybody had any chance of getting that coin "cheap" was if, as Curly said, they hired Brian to bid on their behalf.

Reaming? Buried? I don't think so. And whose ethics are you calling into question?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

This thread is FUNNY. I am the one who got reamed and buried.
Rick Snow who had to be representing a whale beat me for the three coins I needed to buy. Just when I thought I had my golden opportunity Rick outbids me and then says he is sorry. Does anyone have any Preparation H ?

Stewart

renomedphys

Now, I'm not trying to lead this away from topic, but Stewart, man, my heart goes out to you for losing out (again?) in that auction. Many a night I have sat nervously pondering bid attempts on coins that I knew I wanted, felt I needed, HAD to have. Sometimes the only thing standing between you and a coin is fate. I was truly excited for you when I found out you'd have another chance at that MS68RD IHC, and was kinda surprised to hear in the end that Rick walked away with it. Man! Still, you get to go home and pull out a couple of honeys to keep your eyes warm at night. In the end, that's what really matters.

jacktheknife

Don't feel sorry for Stewart!
I've done battle with him on multiple lots over the past 20+ years and never won.

Feel sorry for me!


Jack

DMWJR

There are apparently several blowholes still hitting the surface in the "Indian Ocean" from what I can see.

Glad I'm not trying to build a set of Indians right now!

ArizonaJack

What an educational thread. Logic abounds in some of these pro opinions, I am glad to be able to read this stuff.

ThePennyLady

Excellent information here, and I agree that Brian (and Rick) are role model professionals. I am always educated by their posts - keep them coming, and thank you.

ChrisRx

<< <i>There are apparently several blowholes still hitting the surface in the "Indian Ocean" from what I can see.

Glad I'm not trying to build a set of Indians right now! >>

pennyannie

EE- I should have worded my reply a lot better. I am not saying anyone is unethical. Profit has nothing to do being ethical. I think you and BRWC and a select few dealers have shown why you guys are the cream of the crop when it comes to coin dealers. My gripe is the pricing. I am not against anyone making money, i do not work for free nor do i expect anyone else to. I read all the time we are in a down market and coins have fallen 50 percent or better on coins that are not all there. I have yet to see the bargain fire sale priced coins. Last 3 shows i went to i did not really notice any big price changes. I noticed less money changing hands and smaller crowds but prices seem about like always. I WANT COIN PRICES TO FALL so i can buy more. Yes some coins did badly at the action but the sales floor does not show prices like that. I do not call these heritage auction whosale auctions, to me they are retail auctions. Buy the coin add the buyers premium and then tack on another 20 percent really gets the priceup there. Does not mean that is the true value of the coin just what 1 person will pay. Hand that coin to a average collector at a small show and tell him to sell it and he will not get close to that price from any dealer. Take that same coin to any dealer is the DFW area (including heritage) and you would be lucky to get 70 percent on it.

This is the reason i do not play with the 5k and up coins, i have a hard time figuring out FMV.

ThePennyLady

PA, I agree that the price of many higher value coins has not decreased very significantly - but my take is that this is true because they are premium quality coins, which is what any collector wants and many will pay premium money to have. I have seen collectors save their money to buy that one really, really nice PQ coin, rather than buy several lower end coins. The last several large shows I've been at are as you say, less people, less money changing hands, but the PQ coins are staying at high levels and are still sought after. Isn't "true value" the same as "market value" which simply means what someone, anyone, is willing to pay for that item. Then the price of other similar quality items is usually based on or set at what that first item sold for. Then, if that second similar item sells for less (or more), then that second price now becomes the true or market value. Hope this makes some kind of sense.

Coppercolor

Back to the coin and the auction (away from price markup discussion)...

At the risk of getting stomped with a newby comment, my first impression of the 66RD pink blazer from the photo was that it's color had been worked on. It seemed too good to be true.

My next thought after reading everything was how big an oversight it was not to include the "old pcgs rattler" provenance in the auction description. Experience determining copper originality can't be replaced. But if it could, wouldn't it be knowledge of an individual coin's history? So when two coins with the same date and grade go back to back in the auction, Brian who has personal knowledge of the pink coin's history was at a unique advantage. And maybe the other buyers were paying more attention to the auction houses description of the second coin which I read as more glowing.

This has been a great thread for a moderately experienced collector. I mostly collect toned lincolns and indians, which can be a snakepit, and a place where there may not be such a thing as FMV. Not enough truly original colorful pieces around for any kind of standardization. Thank you all for the education.

BWRC

<< <i>Back to the coin and the auction (away from price markup discussion)...

At the risk of getting stomped with a newby comment, my first impression of the 66RD pink blazer from the photo was that it's color had been worked on. It seemed too good to be true.

My next thought after reading everything was how big an oversight it was not to include the "old pcgs rattler" provenance in the auction description. Experience determining copper originality can't be replaced. But if it could, wouldn't it be knowledge of an individual coin's history? So when two coins with the same date and grade go back to back in the auction, Brian who has personal knowledge of the pink coin's history was at a unique advantage. And maybe the other buyers were paying more attention to the auction houses description of the second coin which I read as more glowing.

This has been a great thread for a moderately experienced collector. I mostly collect toned lincolns and indians, which can be a snakepit, and a place where there may not be such a thing as FMV. Not enough truly original colorful pieces around for any kind of standardization. Thank you all for the education. >>



Thanks for your comments and I really like your IHC avatar, nice! do you own that coin? or just wish you did?

lloydmincy

<< Hand that coin to a average collector at a small show and tell him to sell it and he will not get close to that price from any dealer. Take that same coin to any dealer in the DFW area (including heritage) and you would be lucky to get 70 percent on it.>>

That's why the guy driving (say) a used Ford Taurus cant understand why someone would pay so much for a mint 1963 Corvette. I have showed a 1916-D PCGS MS65 FH dime at a local small coin show, and most collectors didnt even know why it was in a peice of plastic, and one dealer said he wouldn't pay $4000 for it, thinking it would be "hard to sell anyway". One guy said it was fake. It was entertaining, but pennyannie you are correct with your statement. The answer is: It's simply out of their element, expertise and understanding.

Coppercolor

Thanks for your comments and I really like your IHC avatar, nice! do you own that coin? or just wish you did? >>



Happy to comment. I do own the Indian Cent.
Jeff

66RB

Just wanted to say that again, I really like the pink champagne coin you had there BWRC. Just stunning color. Comparing it to the other 1897 MS66RD in the auction, it seems to be a much sharper strike, which is something I like.

And congrats to the new owner

BWRC

Thanks Rob,

You are correct about the strike and the luster is more intense on the "pinkone" I thought it was nicer than the $6,900 coin that day.