I have a question about the Manny Ramirez situation............

RonBurgundy

how long did it take Scott Boras to write Manny's statement about the matter?

5 minutes, 10 minutes, or 20 minutes?

I'm guessing only 5 minutes since I imagine they already had a stock response prepared "just in case", and it needed was a little editing.

lsutigers1973

I have a feeling it was prepared before the test results were released.

RonBurgundy

Probably so.

I got into a huge debate yesterday with a guy who claimed "all guys were on the juice". I said, "even Maddux"? He said "of course."

I told him to shut up.

lsutigers1973

Always thought Manny was juicing anyway. Has an ugly half swing but still hits the ball 450.

itzagoner

most of the drivel that exits Manny's lips or Boras' keyboard would not qualify as a statement, just many different shades of gray.

WinPitcher

The sad thing is this guy was a great without the juice.

He didn't need it.



Steve

itzagoner

here's some more juice......the Dodger management will not lose too much sleep over this and most of us have very short memories, particularly when it comes to the long ball.....nobody stayed away from Phone Booth Park, even after the Bonds allegations became everyday news, they still came......

"So, Mr. McCourt I'm so very sorry about this horrible transgression", (imagine Manny saying it, though, with mumbling), "But I will be well-rested for the playoff push when this aging body recovers and recycles itself. I always had my bestosterone games in the latter part of the season with the Sox, anyways."

Frank scratches his head. "Wanna be a party clown at my annual family 4th of July picnic?"

lsutigers1973

<< <i>The sad thing is this guy was a great without the juice. >>



How do you know? Did you see him play in Little League?

storm888

"<< The sad thing is this guy was a great without the juice. >>"

/////////////////////

Great vs. Greater seems to be what the chase is about.

In yesterday's interview, Canseco noted that his own brother
used steroids for his entire career.

It seems clear that the drugs have very different effects on
individual users.

When the list is released, we will likely be asking, "Why is
that guy not a better player?'

stevek

<< <i>"<< The sad thing is this guy was a great without the juice. >>"

/////////////////////

Great vs. Greater seems to be what the chase is about.

In yesterday's interview, Canseco noted that his own brother
used steroids for his entire career.

It seems clear that the drugs have very different effects on
individual users.

When the list is released, we will likely be asking, "Why is
that guy not a better player?' >>



<<< When the list is released, we will likely be asking, "Why is that guy not a better player?' >>>

Yes, but of course "that guy" likely wouldn't have made it to the bigs without it.

leathtech

you still have to be a super talented to play major league baseball... the drugs might help recover from injuries faster or turn warning track power into home run power (see Brady Anderson) but bottom line you still have to be darn good. Riods does not improve your hand-eye coordination!

DavidPuddy

Being an Indians fan I remember a very small story that happened at the start of spring training 1994. The Indians coaches and front office were angry that Manny came into camp 30 pounds heaver then he played in 1993.

Just sayin', this story should not be a big surprise.

storm888

"...Yes, but of course "that guy" likely wouldn't have made it to the bigs without it. ..."

////////////////////////////

Likely possible, but Canseco's brother never made it big in MLB.

Twin brothers; steroids make one "greater," the other not even "great."

........................

from wiki.........

Osvaldo "Ozzie" Canseco Capas (born July 2, 1964 in Havana, Cuba) is a former Major League Baseball player and the identical twin brother of former Major League Baseball player José Canseco.

Ozzie Canseco had a brief major league career, playing in 24 career games with the Oakland Athletics and St. Louis Cardinals between 1990 and 1993. In between, in 1991, he played in Japan for the Kintetsu Buffaloes.

Canseco was drafted as a pitcher by the New York Yankees in the second round of the 1983 Major League Baseball Draft. In stark contrast to the prolific, power hitting career of his twin brother, Ozzie never hit a major league home run.

Canseco appeared on an episode of VH1's The Surreal Life (Season 5) as a José Canseco impersonator. At the end of the program, it was revealed that he was José's twin brother. He has also reportedly shown up to baseball card shows and book signings passing himself off as his brother.

Canseco currently holds the Atlantic League single season home run record with 48, and he played 3 seasons in the Northern League, two with the Schaumburg Flyers. In 1991 Canseco signed a one-year contract with the Kintetsu Buffaloes of the Japanese Pacific League.[1]

In 2002, Canseco pleaded guilty to charges stemming from a nightclub fight on October 31, 2001. He and his brother got into a fight with two California tourists at a Miami Beach nightclub that left one man with a broken nose and another needing 20 stitches in his lip; Canseco was charged with two counts of aggravated battery. The brothers received probation and community service - Ozzie was sentenced to 18 months probation, 200 hours of community service and anger management classes.[2]

In 2003, Canseco was sentenced to four months in jail for possessing an illegal anabolic steroid and driving with a suspended license.[3] Police stopped Canseco on May 1, 2003, because the tinted windows on his Lincoln Navigator were too dark. The steroid Nandrolone and a syringe were found in the SUV during a search. [4]

edmundfitzgerald

<< <i>

<< <i>The sad thing is this guy was a great without the juice. >>



How do you know? Did you see him play in Little League? >>



Being on the juice doesn't allow you to pick up spin or adjust to change of speeds.
To be able to hit a ball 95mph or an 88mph change up is a gift that not too many people have.
It's all about eye sight and practicing seeing balls pitched at that speed. That takes a God given
ability and a heck of a lot of practice.

edmundfitzgerald

<< <i>Probably so.

I got into a huge debate yesterday with a guy who claimed "all guys were on the juice". I said, "even Maddux"? He said "of course."

I told him to shut up. >>



Greg Maddux was 6 ft 170 lbs. as a 20 year old pitching in the minor leagues.

Greg Maddux then became 6 ft 195 lbs. as a 24 year old pitching in the major leagues.

You make the call

edmundfitzgerald

By the way. Maddux had 25 pounds mostly go to his legs. Look at his legs on his Donruss rookie card, then look at his legs on
a 2004 card. It is "amazing" how his legs go so much bigger while the rest of his body really didn't. Again, you make the call.

Bosox1976

Everybody is suspect. Who can blame them.

OAKESY25

steriods does not make you more talented...
it makes you stronger and faster...

slow grounders are now harder hit grounders that make it through the infield..
pitches you were late on before now get driven hard the other way
pop ups become homers.. homers become bombs

you have to have the talent yes.. but artificial strength is not talent
avoiding the ground outs and pop outs can take a guy from being a .300 hitting all star
power hitter to a .250 hitting utility guy...

cyots82

<< <i>

<< <i>Probably so.

I got into a huge debate yesterday with a guy who claimed "all guys were on the juice". I said, "even Maddux"? He said "of course."

I told him to shut up. >>



Greg Maddux was 6 ft 170 lbs. as a 20 year old pitching in the minor leagues.

Greg Maddux then became 6 ft 195 lbs. as a 24 year old pitching in the major leagues.

You make the call >>



Dude, really you are going to go there with Maddux! Do you remeber yourself at 20 and then 24. 15-25 pounds in that time of life is nothing. You put someone on a natural workout schedule plus factor in body changes that happen between age 20-24 and that weight gain is nothing. The reason his legs got biggers, was because that is the part of your body that you work out when pitching. It's where your power and endurance come from! I got it, why don't you call out Cal Ripken Jr. next. Maybe Tony Gwynn. How about Nolan Ryan, since you want to talk about pitchers with big legs. Read a Nolan Ryan interview. His legs are what kept him in the game as long as he was in it. These type of changes are much different than Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens packing on bulk muscle at 40! Wake up, there were some clean players and some dirty. Just because some idiots did it does not mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER DID!

PowderedH2O

Agreed. I played high school sports and I ate like a pig to keep on weight enough to remain in the 160's during football season. I went into the Air Force at 148 pounds. Suddenly in my mid 20's I gained weight and settled in at the 175-190 that I am now. I doubt that most of the stars of sports were at 20 anything like they were at 30. I would be absolutely stunned if Greg Maddux ever shows up on one of these lists. If so, then I would lose any faith in anyone in sports. That is one dude that never relied on power. He was just spot on.

RonBurgundy

Weight gain doesn't mean nearly as much (esp. at 24) as recovery ability, which is what roids are all about. And if you look at Maddux's later years, you see a slow (though not steep) decline as you would expect to see with an older player. You don't see him getting better like Clemens did.

Tabe

Am seeing a common misconception passed on here so lemme correct:

Steroids don't make you stronger or faster. Their effect is to allow the body to heal or recover faster after a workout. That allows you to workout more and workout more often.

It's for that reason that I have always wondered why people don't look at pitchers more often. Who would benefit more from being able to recover quickly - a pitcher or a hitter? Pitchers, of course. 20 years ago were they dozens of guys throwing 95+? Nope.

Maddux being on the juice wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Tabe

Speed3Driver

Of course pitchers used...look at the number of pitchers who were hitting 16-20 Ks per game so consistently...and now those are history. Yet nobody wants to call them out, we only hear from the biased media about hitters. Perhaps its because these lazy media folk are unable to break down what benefits PED use really gives you (and it gives a benefit to both hitters and pitchers) so they just ignore it. As far as Boras' statement, Manny knew days before it was released that he was being suspended. He had time to consult with his people to have the best course of action. He was initially going to appeal it but figured losing the games now would get him back in time to run the Dodgers up to the playoffs. So Boras and his agency had plenty of time to get a statement ready for Manny.

cyots82

Maddux had improved endurance and recovery due to his slower armspeed, shortend stride and overall effective pitching. The fact is he put less strain on his body by doing more with less and focusing on pitch selection and placement. If you throw 100 pitches in the 75-85 MPH range compared to someone working in the 85-95 range you are naturally going to be less worn out. Also, most pitchers try and make it all about their arm strength, and thus blow themselves out. It's all in your legs! Randy Johnson is the only anomally that I know of and I think it's due to his height. Could Maddux of taken them to recover quicker, yes, in that essence anyone could be guilty, but seeing him over his career and how he started and ended, it was a much more natural rise and decent than say ROGER CLEMENS who posted one of his best seasons at the end of his career!

Edited to add...

I do think there were a lot of pitchers hitting the juice to keep up with the hitters, but I do not think Maddux was one of them. I also think Randy Johnson was clean.