Was Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson that good ?
edmundfitzgerald
Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Or did they benefit from the rule changes from 1963-1968 ?..........................................
In Major League Baseball, the trend throughout the 1960s was of increased pitching dominance, caused by enforcing a larger strike zone (top of armpit to bottom of knee) beginning in 1963. The delicate balance of power between offense and defense reached its greatest tilt in favor of the pitcher by 1968.
Individually, Bob Gibson set a modern earned run average record of 1.12 and a World Series record of 17 strikeouts in Game 1, while Series opponent Denny McLain of the Detroit Tigers won 31 regular season games, the only player to reach the 30 win milestone since Dizzy Dean in 1934. Mickey Lolich won three complete games in the World Series, the last player as of 2008 to do so. Luis Tiant of the Cleveland Indians had the American League's lowest ERA at 1.60 and allowed a batting average of only .168, a major league record.
Hitting was anemic. Carl Yastrzemski of the Boston Red Sox had the lowest batting average of any league champion when his .301 was good enough for the American League batting title. The AL's collective slugging average of .340 remains the lowest since 1915 (when the game was still in the so-called dead-ball era), while the collective batting average of .231 is the all-time lowest.
After the season, the Rules Committee, seeking to restore balance, restored the pre-1963 strike zone and lowered the height of the pitching mound from 15 to 10 inches. Four expansion teams joined the majors. 1969 batting averages zoomed back to their historical averages and never again would pitching have as large a statistical average over batting in the major leagues.
In Major League Baseball, the trend throughout the 1960s was of increased pitching dominance, caused by enforcing a larger strike zone (top of armpit to bottom of knee) beginning in 1963. The delicate balance of power between offense and defense reached its greatest tilt in favor of the pitcher by 1968.
Individually, Bob Gibson set a modern earned run average record of 1.12 and a World Series record of 17 strikeouts in Game 1, while Series opponent Denny McLain of the Detroit Tigers won 31 regular season games, the only player to reach the 30 win milestone since Dizzy Dean in 1934. Mickey Lolich won three complete games in the World Series, the last player as of 2008 to do so. Luis Tiant of the Cleveland Indians had the American League's lowest ERA at 1.60 and allowed a batting average of only .168, a major league record.
Hitting was anemic. Carl Yastrzemski of the Boston Red Sox had the lowest batting average of any league champion when his .301 was good enough for the American League batting title. The AL's collective slugging average of .340 remains the lowest since 1915 (when the game was still in the so-called dead-ball era), while the collective batting average of .231 is the all-time lowest.
After the season, the Rules Committee, seeking to restore balance, restored the pre-1963 strike zone and lowered the height of the pitching mound from 15 to 10 inches. Four expansion teams joined the majors. 1969 batting averages zoomed back to their historical averages and never again would pitching have as large a statistical average over batting in the major leagues.
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<< <i>Or did they benefit from the rule changes from 1963-1968 ?..........................................
In Major League Baseball, the trend throughout the 1960s was of increased pitching dominance, caused by enforcing a larger strike zone (top of armpit to bottom of knee) beginning in 1963. The delicate balance of power between offense and defense reached its greatest tilt in favor of the pitcher by 1968.
Individually, Bob Gibson set a modern earned run average record of 1.12 and a World Series record of 17 strikeouts in Game 1, while Series opponent Denny McLain of the Detroit Tigers won 31 regular season games, the only player to reach the 30 win milestone since Dizzy Dean in 1934. Mickey Lolich won three complete games in the World Series, the last player as of 2008 to do so. Luis Tiant of the Cleveland Indians had the American League's lowest ERA at 1.60 and allowed a batting average of only .168, a major league record.
Hitting was anemic. Carl Yastrzemski of the Boston Red Sox had the lowest batting average of any league champion when his .301 was good enough for the American League batting title. The AL's collective slugging average of .340 remains the lowest since 1915 (when the game was still in the so-called dead-ball era), while the collective batting average of .231 is the all-time lowest.
After the season, the Rules Committee, seeking to restore balance, restored the pre-1963 strike zone and lowered the height of the pitching mound from 15 to 10 inches. Four expansion teams joined the majors. 1969 batting averages zoomed back to their historical averages and never again would pitching have as large a statistical average over batting in the major leagues. >>
Let Mickey Mantle tell you about Sandy Koufax...
...this is from Koufax's book...I may not have the quote exactly right but I'm close. In the WS after Mantle struck out on a nasty Koufax curveball, Mantle turned to the Dodgers catcher Roseboro and said, "How the F* is anybody supposed to hit that S*.
He is the pitcher's -- Jim Rice .
Just my 2-1/2 cents---- Sonny
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Gibson ERA+ is 127, good for 42nd(t) all time best.
ERA+ is basically a comparison of your ERA to league ERA average. So how good you were compared to your competition.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>koufax ERA+ is 131, good for 33rd(t) all time best.
Gibson ERA+ is 127, good for 42nd(t) all time best.
ERA+ is basically a comparison of your ERA to league ERA average. So how good you were compared to your competition. >>
Do you have a Top 10 list for ERA+ TIA
<< <i>koufax ERA+ is 131, good for 33rd(t) all time best.
Gibson ERA+ is 127, good for 42nd(t) all time best.
ERA+ is basically a comparison of your ERA to league ERA average. So how good you were compared to your competition. >>
Oh please....today's pitchers with their "watered down" ERA's pitching to a number of batters whose type wouldn't have made it out of AAA ball in the1960's.
I'm not saying some of today's pitchers aren't good, but in my opinion none are as good as Koufax and Gibson.
<< <i>
<< <i>koufax ERA+ is 131, good for 33rd(t) all time best.
Gibson ERA+ is 127, good for 42nd(t) all time best.
ERA+ is basically a comparison of your ERA to league ERA average. So how good you were compared to your competition. >>
Oh please....today's pitchers with their "watered down" ERA's pitching to a number of batters whose type wouldn't have made it out of AAA ball in the1960's.
I'm not saying some of today's pitchers aren't good, but in my opinion none are as good as Koufax and Gibson. >>
So the two best pitchers of all time just happen to have pitched at the same time? Not impossible by any means, just would b interesting. I guess you have to determine if they benifitted from playing in the best modern pitching era, or if they were so good they made the era seem so good for pitchers.
here is the top 50, from baseball-reference.com
Rank Player (age) Adjusted ERA+ Throws
1. Mariano Rivera (39) 199 R
2. Pedro Martinez (37) 154 R
3. Lefty Grove+ 148 L
4. Walter Johnson+ 147 R
5. Dan Quisenberry 146 R
Johan Santana (30) 146 L
Ed Walsh+ 146 R
Hoyt Wilhelm+ 146 R
Joe Wood 146 R
10. Roger Clemens 143 R
11. Jim Devlin 142 R
Addie Joss+ 142 R
Al Spalding+ 142 R
Brandon Webb (30) 142 R
15. Kid Nichols+ 140 R
16. Roy Oswalt (31) 139 R
17. Mordecai Brown+ 138 R
Cy Young+ 138 R
19. John Franco 137 L
Randy Johnson (45) 137 L
21. Bruce Sutter+ 136 R
22. Pete Alexander+ 135 R
Christy Mathewson+ 135 R
Rube Waddell+ 135 L
25. John Clarkson+ 134 R
John Hiller 134 L
27. Harry Brecheen 133 L
Whitey Ford+ 133 L
29. Spud Chandler 132 R
Noodles Hahn 132 L
Greg Maddux 132 R
Kent Tekulve 132 R
33. Roy Halladay (32) 131 R
Roberto Hernandez 131 R
Sandy Koufax+ 131 L
Lee Smith 131 R
37. Dizzy Dean+ 130 R
Carl Hubbell+ 130 L
Hal Newhouser+ 130 L
40. Doug Jones 129 R
Amos Rusie+ 129 R
42. Kevin Brown 127 R
Stan Coveleski+ 127 R
Nig Cuppy 127 R
Bob Gibson+ 127 R
Tim Keefe+ 127 R
Sparky Lyle 127 L
Sal Maglie 127 R
Jack Pfiester 127 L
Curt Schilling 127 R
Tom Seaver+ 127 R
John Smoltz (42) 127 R
Carlos Zambrano (28) 127 R
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>koufax ERA+ is 131, good for 33rd(t) all time best.
Gibson ERA+ is 127, good for 42nd(t) all time best.
ERA+ is basically a comparison of your ERA to league ERA average. So how good you were compared to your competition. >>
Oh please....today's pitchers with their "watered down" ERA's pitching to a number of batters whose type wouldn't have made it out of AAA ball in the1960's.
I'm not saying some of today's pitchers aren't good, but in my opinion none are as good as Koufax and Gibson. >>
So the two best pitchers of all time just happen to have pitched at the same time? Not impossible by any means, just would b interesting. I guess you have to determine if they benifitted from playing in the best modern pitching era, or if they were so good they made the era seem so good for pitchers.
here is the top 50, from baseball-reference.com
Rank Player (age) Adjusted ERA+ Throws
1. Mariano Rivera (39) 199 R
2. Pedro Martinez (37) 154 R
3. Lefty Grove+ 148 L
4. Walter Johnson+ 147 R
5. Dan Quisenberry 146 R
Johan Santana (30) 146 L
Ed Walsh+ 146 R
Hoyt Wilhelm+ 146 R
Joe Wood 146 R
10. Roger Clemens 143 R
11. Jim Devlin 142 R
Addie Joss+ 142 R
Al Spalding+ 142 R
Brandon Webb (30) 142 R
15. Kid Nichols+ 140 R
16. Roy Oswalt (31) 139 R
17. Mordecai Brown+ 138 R
Cy Young+ 138 R
19. John Franco 137 L
Randy Johnson (45) 137 L
21. Bruce Sutter+ 136 R
22. Pete Alexander+ 135 R
Christy Mathewson+ 135 R
Rube Waddell+ 135 L
25. John Clarkson+ 134 R
John Hiller 134 L
27. Harry Brecheen 133 L
Whitey Ford+ 133 L
29. Spud Chandler 132 R
Noodles Hahn 132 L
Greg Maddux 132 R
Kent Tekulve 132 R
33. Roy Halladay (32) 131 R
Roberto Hernandez 131 R
Sandy Koufax+ 131 L
Lee Smith 131 R
37. Dizzy Dean+ 130 R
Carl Hubbell+ 130 L
Hal Newhouser+ 130 L
40. Doug Jones 129 R
Amos Rusie+ 129 R
42. Kevin Brown 127 R
Stan Coveleski+ 127 R
Nig Cuppy 127 R
Bob Gibson+ 127 R
Tim Keefe+ 127 R
Sparky Lyle 127 L
Sal Maglie 127 R
Jack Pfiester 127 L
Curt Schilling 127 R
Tom Seaver+ 127 R
John Smoltz (42) 127 R
Carlos Zambrano (28) 127 R >>
Well, it's the old "debate" again, longevity and stats versus pitching ability, etc, etc...I mean I don't think hardly anyone would say Hank Aaron was a better hitter that Babe Ruth because Aaron wound up with more HR's. Koufax was the best pitcher I ever saw, granted I was young, but not too young to remember how "helpless" those batters often looked at the plate. Gibson was downright brutal as well. None of the other pitchers I watched then looked nearly that good time after time. I'd say Randy Johnson is close and up there, and I'd take Goose Gossage as a reliever. I can't speak for pitchers from the 1950's on back.
Ok............
Steve
pitchers who were dominate for short period of times, few that made an entire career of it.
JS
<< <i>John Franco better then Tom Seaver?
Ok............
Steve >>
Yea that is something I would expect to hear from Dallasactuary, along with some foolish scientific #'s theory to go along with it as well.
<< <i>John Franco better then Tom Seaver?
Ok............
Steve >>
Fellas, be very careful when using ERA+ as a determination who had the better career, because ERA+ is purely a rate stat, and does not take into account the number of IP from a player. A guy with an ERA of 3.00 over 100 Innings pitched will be viewed as equal to a guy with an ERA of 3.00 over 1,000 IP.
Runs saved above league average player and League replacement level players is more indicative of their values.
Name......Runs saved over average player......Runs saved over replacement level player.
Seaver...........514......................................................1,125
Franco...........273.........................................................575
Big Unit.........471.......................................................1,087
John Franco was a pretty darn good pitcher, but he also had to only throw one or two innings per game over those innings as well. Nonetheless, this shows clearly which of the two were better.
Koufax is a unique case in baseball, as his peak was great, but he wasn't that great in his other half of his career, and he was done in his early 30's. He was not as good as Tom Seaver. Though i always give special consideration to Koufax because he clearly had a lot left in the tank when he retired. I have no problem envisioning him rolling off another six years at the pace he was going....if healthy of course
Warren Edward Spahn (April 23, 1921 – November 24, 2003) was an American left-handed pitcher in Major League Baseball who played for 21 seasons, all in the National League. He won 20 games each in 13 seasons, including a 23-7 record when he was aged 42. Spahn was the 1957 Cy Young Award winner, and was the runner-up three times, all during the period when just one award was given. He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1973, with 83% of the total vote. (His eligibility was delayed, under the rules of the time by 2 years of token minor league play).
Spahn was regarded as a "thinking man's" pitcher who liked to outwit batters. He once described his approach on the mound: "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing."
Spahn won more games (363) than any other left-handed pitcher in history, and more than any other pitcher who played his entire career in the post-1920 live-ball era. He is acknowledged as one of the best pitchers in Major League Baseball history. The Warren Spahn Award, given to the major leagues' best left-handed pitcher, is named after him.
He led or shared the lead in the NL in wins from 1957-1961 (age 36 through 40).
Spahn was also a good hitter, hitting at least one home run in 17 straight seasons, and finishing with an NL career record for pitchers, with 35 home runs. Wes Ferrell, who spent most of his time in the American League, holds the overall record for pitchers, with 37.
Along with many other major leaguers, Spahn chose to enlist in the United States Army, after finishing the 1942 season in the minors. He served with distinction, and was awarded a Purple Heart[citation needed] and the Bronze Star for bravery. He saw action in the Battle of the Bulge and at the Ludendorff Bridge as a combat engineer, and was awarded a battlefield commission[citation needed]. He was only one of 4 men in major league baseball's military who earned a battlefield commission, along with Ted Williams, Yogi Berra, and Bob Feller.
n 1947, Spahn led the National League in ERA while posting a 21–10 record. It was the first of his thirteen 20-win seasons. Spahn also won two more ERA titles, in 1953 and 1961.
In 1951, Spahn allowed the first career hit to Willie Mays, a home run. Mays had begun his career 0-for-12, and Spahn joked, "I'll never forgive myself. We might have gotten rid of Willie forever if I'd only struck him out." (In 1962, another Hall of Famer hit his first career home run off Spahn: Sandy Koufax, who only hit one other.)
Spahn threw his first no-hitter in 1960, when he was 39. He pitched his second no-hitter the following year. By the last two seasons of his career, Spahn was the oldest active player in baseball. He lost this distinction for a single day: September 25, 1965, when 58-year-old Satchel Paige pitched three innings.
In other words, it is easier for a stud to separate oneself from a league where the league average ERA is 5.00, than it is to separate oneself where the league average ERA is 3.00.
<< <i>Are there any two more consistent pitchers over a long time then Spahn and Maddux ? >>
Very good question and off the top of my head no one since 1950 comes to my mind with the exception of Hoyt Wilhelm, at least for longevity. He pitched in his last game 16 days before his 50th birthday.
Wilhelm finished his career at age 49, appearing in over 1,000 games over a 21 year career. This longevity is mostly unique, as he had not made his major league debut until age 28. He was also the first pitched to appear in 1000 games, first to have saved 200 games, won 124 games in relief and hit a home run in his first appearance as a hitter.
Hoyt also led both the american league (1959)
PS his 1st at bat HOME RUN was also his last!!!!
SKY
<< <i>Mike,
Hoyt also led both the american league (1959)
PS his 1st at bat HOME RUN was also his last!!!!
<STRONG>SKY</STRONG> >>
ps, he tossed that no hitter against Don Larsen. Fortunately I was able to see him pitch a couple of times at Old Comiskey.
<< <i>
Let Mickey Mantle tell you about Sandy Koufax...
...this is from Koufax's book...I may not have the quote exactly right but I'm close. In the WS after Mantle struck out on a nasty Koufax curveball, Mantle turned to the Dodgers catcher Roseboro and said, "How the F* is anybody supposed to hit that S*. >>
I think the Mick said something similiar about Dick Radatz too using the same colorful language.
When discussing great hurlers, who may have had too short a career or too short a peak,
Koufax might be compared well to Addie Joss, both ended their careers suddendly, Koufax by injury, Joss by death.
Joss is the all time best pitcher ever via WHIP, second best ever via ERA.
Among HOF starting pitchers, his adjusted ERA + is fourth best ever, and I believe his BB/9 rate is the best among HOF starters from the 20th century.
Koufax led the league in ERA an astounding five consecutive seasons, in that span he won THREE pitching triple crowns, four separate WHIP titles, and even when the home park advantage was imperfectly "adjusted' for, he was the best in ERA + two different seasons. He wound up being the second best pitcher ever, in terms of fewest hits allowed per 9.
Larsen pitched 6 but Bobby Shantz took the loss. He gave up a Gus Triandos homer for only run of the game.
SKY
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Sadly, Fitzie is just as clueless in 2014 as he was in 2009 when posting this ludicrous drivel. >>
Sadly, everyone here knows that when children feel inferior, they resort to name calling and put downs on those who are perceived as better than them.
Sadly Grote never grew out of that childhood stage, therefore he spends the rest of his life man-stalking on a sports card forum.
It really is sad, and everyone needs to treat him with gentleness and kindness, and perhaps sent him some cellophane with header cards. I hear that really cheers him up.
<< <i>Sadly, Fitzie is just as clueless in 2014 as he was in 2009 when posting this ludicrous drivel. >>
Bingo! He relishes his ignorance and wears it as a badge of honor.