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Question about Type B values
cucamongacoin
Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭
I was hoping someone could fill in the blanks as to approximate values for the following Type B Quarters. All are raw, white, and accurately graded;
'57 P MS63
'57 P MS64
'57 P MS65
'57 P MS66
'58 P MS64
'60 P MS62
'60 P MS63
'60 P MS64
'62 P MS62
'62 P MS63
'62 P MS64
'63 P MS62
'63 P MS63
Thanks!
'57 P MS63
'57 P MS64
'57 P MS65
'57 P MS66
'58 P MS64
'60 P MS62
'60 P MS63
'60 P MS64
'62 P MS62
'62 P MS63
'62 P MS64
'63 P MS62
'63 P MS63
Thanks!
<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ebay.com/sch/cucamo...?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc="> MY EBAY
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Comments
The 62 is 3rd toughest- Raw I would say the premium a bit more- I would say 1.5 price for a BU 62; because to get it graded and verified it is going to cost 50$ each- The variety designation is pricey-
The 60 and 63 are about the same in terms of rarity- In these grades I would say the premium is minimal.
John
There is a poster here that knows much more about 1957 mint sets than I do, but I have the impression that about half of the 1957's were type B. Yet 1957 was a double set so maybe you could average 1 per mint set.
There were a lot of B's in circulation that year. Bill Edwards said 5% of the 1957 mintage were B's. If he meant all 1957's including D mint, it would be equivalent to 13.4% of the P mintage.
In my experience all 1959 mint sets had a type B Philly quarter and about 50% of the 1960 sets.
I'll give it a shot based on experience and a shot I have of the CONECA as shown here BELOW.
'57 P MS63 - in true 63 - about $10
'57 P MS64 - in raw 64 - not much, if any difference, from the above
'57 P MS65 - RAW - a true Gem probably will fetch no more than $15 or so because MOST won't know a B unless in a PCGS holder attributed "FS-901"
'57 P MS66 - $20 at most as not many laymen can distinguish between a 65 & a 66
'58 P MS64 - Same holds true for ALL RAW specimen because most folks just do not readily recognize a Type B. It's ALL about the plastic & the FS attribution.
'60 P MS62 - It's been my experience that NONE of these, sold RAW, will bring more than $10-$20 bucks, particularly in lower grades - SEE ABOVE & BELOW!
'60 P MS63
'60 P MS64
'62 P MS62
'62 P MS63
'62 P MS64
'63 P MS62
'63 P MS63
If I get this all botched up (out of order) - Sorry, but I've tried my best!
First off, I can tell you that it gets quite pricy submitting these raw for grading and proper attribution which is THE #1 reason why most people do not submit them raw!
Note the prices CONECA shows - and this is based on 5% of the total minted! Population is nowhere close to even 1%.
DO THE MATH!
Secondly, raw pieces just DO NOT bring anywhere near the money correctly attributed PCGS FS-901 do! Even known (Obvious Type
Many a seller tries to sell these Washies even in 66 holders (PCGS & NGC) but it the public does not SEE FS-901, they do not sell like properly attributed pieces do AND, TO DATE NGC does NOT YET have ANY FS-901 Type B in Census!
With this in mind let's go back to the top and I'll show you realistic #s you can expect for RAW specimen.
Basically, the public wants to be certain they are buying a True FS-901.
Excellent advice since the first picture shown from 1958 (page 158 CPG 4th ed vol II) is a type C and not a type B. Page 152 has it right.
Also type B was not used in 1936 and most 1968 S proofs are not type B.
BOOM, that was a very interesting post. Could you give us some sample prices for correctly labeled PCGS holdered type B's and what you think is the MS grade that would be a break even point that would cover the PCGS fees? How do other TPG's holders do?
I recall when I somehow managed to put together all the PCGS coin #s for the Type B (silvers)
At that time they were not to be found anywhere in population - so I decided to give a handful a shot after having called CS on more than one occassion, trying to make sure I had everything right on the submission form. I was told the same thing EVERY time .... just to enter the correct PCGS coin # and the graders would know what to do!
After hearing the same thing several times, asking if I had to do anything more and being told NO, each time - I sent off that 1st submission
with the correct PCGS coin #s for the Type B for each year and just to make SURE, I wrote Type B Proof Reverse next to every coin!
Then came the day I got my grades! Someone had changed ALL THE PCGS coin #s. I had a caniption!!
Turns out - the graders did NOT know what to do. PCGS was about to send my coins back to me as regular issue business strikes!!
Luckily I caught the mistake while the order was still in house. I called CS AGAIN and THIS TIME I was told since they were Varieties I had to
cough up $20 per coin to have done that which I had been ASSURED would be taken care of, with no extra attention needed.
Being that far gone - with one grading 63 (a 59 sent in still in the Mint cello) several 64 and a few 65 ... since I was that far gone & "on a Mission"
I OK'd the extra charges and just took my chances.
The first one I introduced to the public (on ebay) was the 59. I sold it for about $75. Hmmm. I MAY have made enough to buy a Happy Meal.
Then I broke out the 64s but bear in mind that AT THE TIME I was first and pops were really LOW! Surprisingly, they all went for over $100 each but again I stress, POPS were LOW!
Then came the 65s. These ALL ent for the $150 range. It started somewhat of a frenzy as right after that EVERYBODY was trying to sell Type B RAW or in ICG holders. I bought a few and did "OK"! I sold my first 57 Type B PCGS 65 for about $150. I did better on that coin, for sure!
Then I found a duo of 1957 that could pass as twins. Both beautifully toned. I sold the 66 [a 1957] (properly attributed) for $180. I may have made $40 profit
The 67 I purchased (using MY results as a Barometer) for $350 - another 57 and was fortunate enough to flip it for $450. I spent quite a bit placing it just right on ebay (Cost me quite a bit to run [insert and photos] w/ FREE S/H! By the time I paid all ebay related fees and S/H I cleared a whopping $25 Profit! Ahhh, again - at LEAST I finished in Black Ink! I recall the amount I spent trying to sell it VERY WELL but moreover I remember that FINAL VALUE FEES on fixed price listings was a whopping 12%
Soon afterward, I noticed a population explosion. It's EXPENSIVE - TOO EXPENSIVE - to have these made! I also noticed many people seemingly making a bunch of 64 as if by default! Every now & then a 65 gets made!
Some people who noticed they had existing Bs in unattributed holders, tried to realize the same results but the public ain't goin' for it. They pay for a B, they want to see FS-901 on that PCGS holder! Some are on ebay now & have been trying for months but people aren't going to pay the same money for coins they know will have to be sent in for proper attribution.
A fortunate few found they had Type B in already graded PCGS 67 holders and sprang for the attribution! I DO KNOW of a couple people that actually "made" PCGS 67 1957.
Congrats to them as getting a 7 out of PCGS on RAW Washington Quarters IS NO EASY TASK!
So now - I look at all the Bs I have and you can believe that before I spend right at $45-$50 per coin, I'm going to make SURE they ALL grade a minimum of 65 or are extremely low in population, to merit the expense!
Hope this helps.
Depends on population and the year but generally speaking - NOW- PCGS 65.
As for others - I've done OK.
I gather it is best not to spend too much money cherrypicking unless you know what you are doing and have a very sharp pencil.
Not many people are willing to "play the Game" on raw Type B considering the expense to try.
I am going to send in the ones I KNOW are worth sending in.
As for others - my best advice is to take long, hard looks and make darned sure of the approximate
grade and study the pop report before trying this or you'll definitely be in RED Ink!
Anything less than a 64, I wouldn't even consider sending in right now!
Just put them away and let The Market come to you (All)!
If you're confident you have at least 65s and have done your Homework - GO FOR IT!
1956 in a 66
1956 in a 67
1959 in a 64
ditto in a 65
and in a 66
1962 in a 65
and in a 66
these are all holdered in either a PCGS/NGC or Anacs (old whitey and a blue)
I'm to understand that the 56 n 62 are the toughest dates to find the type B's in anything close to gem grade.
am I wrong Boom?
I fully enjoy searching for them, but I no longer buy the common years unless they are at least MS64 worthy or they're dirt cheap.
Including this Variety in The Registry is the ONLY WAY to justify what I feel is WAY too much to have these "made"!
Such a move would create a demand and as such - a Market. $45-$50 PER COIN, to wind up with a PCGS 64 just won't get it.
* Wade - unless YOU send the coins you say you have IN FOR Variety Attribution (specifically FS-901 Type B Pf Reverse)
they are NOT WORTH the full amount. Those of us that recognize Variety are only going to pay a pre-determined amount
because WE KNOW that to get them in PCGS FS-901 is going to cost a certain amount.
The dates and grades you have are DEFINITELY WORTH sending in. PCGS 66 (Unattributed) DO NOT COMMAND THE PREMIUMS
of properly attributed specimen! I've seen NGC 66 and PCGS 66 claiming to be Type B but are NOT attributed just sit for months
not moving because the collector WANTS the Fs-901 Type B attribution.
A 56 in PCGS 65, 66 and 67 (proerly attributed) WILL SELL for GOOD MONEY! - Unatrributed - to Joe Public, they will NOT because, as
evidenced in some of these threads, some among us simply DO NOT readily know what a Type B's "properties" are! 1956 Type B in 65
or higher is "da nutz"!
The same may be said for the 60, 61 & 62. NONE OF THESE IN NGC is going to sell for the full Monte because they will have to be crossed
and correctly attributed! I CANNOT EXPRESS ENOUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ALL IMPORTANT Type B FS-901 attribution ON THE SLABS!
MOST COLLECTORS DO NOT READILY RECOGNIZE A TYPE B, especially raw and still, many a 56 can go un-noticed, particularly if gauging by
the gap between the E and S in STATES alone!
I'm as Game as anyone but I am NOT spending $45-$50 on grading and attribution on any Type B, crossed or made from scratch, unless I
am CERTAIN the coin is of Low Population (56, 58, 60, 61, 62, 64) and or will definitely make a minimum of PCGS 65. To do otherwise is crazy!
1957 and 1963 are quite common. Unless you have these in PCGS 65 (minimum) it's a crap shoot, made even dicier in light of today's Market
& Economy and if you (the owner) don't know your series and SELL IT, by the time FeeBay and PayPal are done with you - you'll indeed be
fortunate just to break even.
If PCGS makes this Variety part of the Registry, it will generate submissions, market and demand thereby making the cost to try a lot more pallatable!.
Market the true scarcity of this Variety, make it part of the Registry - and it changes EVERYTHING!
This is my opinion based on what I have done and seen!
1956, 61, 62, 64 in 65 or better is worth it ... NOW!
If I find these dates in PCGS 66 or 67, I'll buy them and spend the money to get the desired finished product.
I would definitely be interested in short "Variety" sets.
Look at all the various combinations that currently exist.
Why not open up another and create more interest in this series -
and ultimately, the Type B, if for no other reason than to try to
get a handle on true population??
1956 went from a total pop of 15 in Dec '08 to 19 in Feb '09..currently it's at 22-- No new pop tops made, still 2 in MS66..1-MS64, 2-MS65 made in April
1957 went from a total pop of 38 in Dec '08 to 68 in Feb '09...currently it's at 76--Only one new pop top made from Dec to Feb..went from 6 in MS67, to 7 in MS67...still 7 in MS67
1958 went from a total pop of 23 in Dec '08 to 109 in Feb '09..currently it's at 156--2 new pop tops made from Dec to Feb..went from 1 in MS66, to 3 in MS66..still 3 in MS66
1959 went from a total pop of 63 in Dec '08 to 114 in Feb '09..currently it's at 120--No new pop tops have been made, still 5 in MS66..MS65, 65 pops doubled
1960 went from a total pop of 47 in Dec '08 to 118 in Feb '09..currently it's at 144--No new pop tops have been made, still 9 in MS66...MS63, 64, 65 saw jumpsof 3X-4X
1961 went from a total pop of 19 in Dec '08 to 22 in Feb '09..currently it's at 32--1 new pop top was made in March, from 9 in MS66 to 10 in 66
1962 went from a total pop of 15 in Dec '08 to 24 in Feb '09..currently it's at 25--Pops in MS65 (5), MS66 (1), MS67 (1) hasn't changed since Dec..1 AU in Feb, MS63 & 64 jumped
1963 went from a total pop of 147 in Dec '08 to 200 in Feb '09..currently it's at 202-1 new pop top in MS66 was made..THIS WEEK...went from 4 in MS66 to 5 in 66
1964 went from a total pop of 10 in Dec '08 to 82 in Feb '09..currently it's at 85-No new pop top has been made...still 1 in MS66 (there were no MS63 in Dec, 16 in Feb..
As Boom suggests the 1956, 61, 62, 64 are still the toughest. If MORGANHUNTER2 has these '56's in 66 & 67, and a '62 in 66, and those aren't in PCGS plastic already he may have a better chance at cracking out. A '56 in MS67 would throw a serious monkey wrench into the pricing of MS65 & MS66. Should they need crossing, an MS67 would be a pipe dream...count on a 65 and 66 if crossing...at BEST. A '62 in 66 would make 2 in 66, with 1 higher, not damaging the top prices too badly. In general, I find crossing NGC and ANACS Washies to PCGS usually results in a point drop. I tried to cross an 1960 NGC MS66 'W' and an ANACS '61 MS66 last year (Sept '08) with my 8 freebies...thought they were both sure locks at a 66...these coins were all there, especially the '60 MS66 'W'. No dice.....both DNC. Fast forward to Feb '09 (no Type B 's submitted). Sent both back in with my 8 freebies, a few months ago, giving a minimum of 65, just to see what would happen. Both came back MS65. I'll crack 'em and try 'em raw....I STILL think they should 66, but they may have a better chance raw. That's just one of many futile attempts at crossing ANACS (OLD holders....I'd NEVER expect a cross in the NEW ANACS slabs, blue OR yellow...I'd guess a 2 point loss, MAYBE 1 point, on a good day), and NGC Washies. If it weren't for the freebies, I'd NEVER try to cross NGC or ANACS at same grade (they'd have to be NGC or ANACS 67's to get a 66 at PCGS. I'd think MORGANHUNTER2's chances might be better cracking them out and trying raw (yes, even the old ANACS small white holders....going on the assumption the '56's and the 62 are NOT in PCGS plastic awaiting a simple designation). I can only imagine them being tougher on the varieties Hopefully they put them in the 'with varieties' registry set (I have 25 PCGS...the right dates, as well as some of the 'common' dates in pop top and dozens more raw, not to mention PCGS unattributed and NGC's in MS65 and 66)....I sure hope these get included in the registry set before long, then I'm a seller all day!!!
1964-D Type C, that's a whole different animal.....still total pop under 20, with 6 in AU: AU50-2, AU53-1, AU55-2, AU58-1 12 in MS: MS62-1, MS63-4, MS64-5, MS65-1, MS66-1 (got me a few of those in 64, and about 5 raw...2 of the raw are unc, maybe 62-63...but with the tight standards....who knows. This whole game could change with one swing of the registry set bat.
I'm still 'virgin' with the clad Type B's, but hope to master them eventually....gotta find me some in better than XF first.
<< <i>Keep trying!
I would definitely be interested in short "Variety" sets.
Look at all the various combinations that currently exist.
Why not open up another and create more interest in this series -
and ultimately, the Type B, if for no other reason than to try to
get a handle on true population??
I will keep trying, but I think that I am going to need the help of other members here on the boards that are interested in them. I have even gone through the trouble of doing a poll to see who was interested in the set. I submitted it to the registry team to show them that the set would be worth their time to post on the registry and they still denied me.
Eventually the Type B will have to be recognized for what it is.
I think that all the DDO, DDR, D/S, S/D and Type B would be quite a challending short set.
This series, long the workhorse of daily Commerce, holds many yet to be recognized Varieties.
Washington quarters are not my thing and I must confess that I had no insight into type 2 varieties.
I am now a slightly better informed numismatist.
<< <i>
<< <i>Keep trying!
I would definitely be interested in short "Variety" sets.
Look at all the various combinations that currently exist.
Why not open up another and create more interest in this series -
and ultimately, the Type B, if for no other reason than to try to
get a handle on true population??
I will keep trying, but I think that I am going to need the help of other members here on the boards that are interested in them. I have even gone through the trouble of doing a poll to see who was interested in the set. I submitted it to the registry team to show them that the set would be worth their time to post on the registry and they still denied me. >>
Here is a thought:
Why not do an online petition, here on the CU for the Registry folks. 1 signature only, no alts, strictly the ones that are truly interested in getting the Registry to re consider the variety for the Type B and the Type C reverse's. Maybe we can get smOTIS to sticky this for a week.
I'll start.
WE THE BELOW SIGNED IN MEMBERS REQUEST THAT THE SET REGISTRY TEAM RE CONSIDER THE VARIETY DESIGNATION FOR THE WASHINGTON TYPE B AND TYPE C REVERSE DESIGN. THESE DESIGNATED VARITIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED IN WHOLE OF THE CURRENT WASHINGTON REGISTRY OR AS A SUB SET STRICTLY FOR VARIETIES AS RECOGNIZED IN THE 4TH Ed. of THE CHERRY PICKERS GUIDE.
1- MORGANHUNTER2
Windycity
Nutz
I'm still 'virgin' with the clad Type B's, but hope to master them eventually....gotta find me some in better than XF first.>>
ANACS for 1964 D type C has a total population listed of 160 with top pops of MS 64 - 28 and MS 65 - 4. I still considrer this a rare item.
I have never seen an unc clad B. I have heard of 3 1969 D and 1 1970 D B's in unc though.
I am very proud of my XF set. Hane you found any at all?
I have heard of only 3 other 1972 D B's in captivity and 2 of these may be sort of lost at the moment (deceased owners?)
Strangely enough, I have found quite a few circulated 1962 B's. I presume those are worth melt.
I have created a petition thread for the washington quarters that we have been dicussing here. Morganhunter2 and Boom, if there is anything else that you may want to add in the new thread, please do so. Thank you Morganhunter2 for getting this petition started. I just wanted to make a seperate thread so we don't clog this thread and can make ourselves more visible to everyone. If we can just get dpoole to hop on I think we got a great chance.
morgandollar1878
Petition
Final prices now:
1956 PCGS MS 66 $253
1957 PCGS MS 66 $138
1959 PCGS MS 65 $35
1960 PCGS MS 66 $172.50
1961 PCGS MS 66 $184
1963 PCGS MS 66 $138 --- Final price 184.
Seems to me those are pretty good numbers!
The price on that '56 Type B in MS66 was a STEAL, as that's one of just two graded, with none finer. People must have been asleep at the wheel.
The price on the '57 in MS66 was STUPID STUPID money (for now), as there are 7 graded in MS67 (there were still a half dozen in MS67, 16-MS66 at the time of the auction).
The price on the '59 wasn't such a bad deal, with only 5 better at the time, and there are still only 5 better, though the total pop has doubled since then (mostly MS64 & MS65)
The price on the '60 was a decent price, the pops of MS66 hasn't moved since then
The price on the '61 in MS66 is impossible, as there aren't ANY graded in MS66, though in MS65, it was a strong price, but 2 more have been made, and another IS on the way...
The price on the '63 wasn't bad, as there were only 4 graded at the time
Should these become registry worthy (lets keep that petition at the top people), the prices will certainly get stronger for MS65/66 for most dates (except the '57, you'll need a 66 or a 67 to see good $$, with there being 7 in MS67). Pops are going up, but the majority of the entries into the reports are MS65 and lower. For the most part, the MS65 numbers haven't risen too dramatically, except in the cases of the '57, '58, '59, and '60 (and the '60 quadrupled...from 6 to 24).
Those ANACS pops on the '64-D don't worry me one bit (no offense to ProofArtworkonCircs, as a matter of fact, thanks for sharing those pops), as their 64 & 65's won't cross, unless it's a SPECTACULAR example. In the case of the '64-D Type C, an MS64 is going to bring STRONG $$ when these become part of a registry. The '64-D Type C MS65 and MS66 will never come out of hiding. As Boom said, MS64's and lower shouldn't be considered for submission for now (except, perhaps, in the cae of the '56, '61, '62, and '64-D Type C)... though WHEN the registry sets are opened up to these Type B's (and ESPECIALLY the '64 Type C), sure, the pops will grow, but they'll grow as is the pattern now....MS63/64 will be the norm for new grades for the tougher dates (the '56, '61, '62, '64) . AU's have been hitting the pop reports since Dec, and with the attribution fees, an AU coin is NEVER going to be a winner, MAYBE not even in the case of the '64-D Type C.
Order #20292549 / Submission #101066
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 14801187 5876 1964 25C US MS64 TYPE B
2 1 14801188 5877 1964-D 25C US Genuine (91 - Questionable Color)
2 2 14801189 5877 1964-D 25C US MS64 TYPE C, this was a crack out of an ANACS MS64 and attrib as Breen#
3 1 14801190 5868 1960 25C US MS64 TYPE B
4 1 14801191 5870 1961 25C US MS65 TYPE B
5 1 14801192 5874 1963 25C US MS65 TYPE B
6 1 14801193 4068 1960-D 5C US MS65
7 1 14801194 6707 1964-D 50C US MS64 RPM 501
8 1 14801195 6707 1964-D 50C US MS64 RPM 501
9 1 14801196 6707 1964-D 50C US MS63 DDO 101 I was really thinking a 64 or 5 on this one
Total Items: 10
Date Received: 4/7/2009
Date Shipped: N/A
Order Status: Shipped
My Washington Type B/C Set
<< <i>What are the chances of finding a proof with a MS reverse ? >>
There was a 1/ 10 OZ gold piece a few years back with a circulation strike
reverse die processed as a proof. It was identifiable because of the remains
of a W mint mark.
It wouldn't be too surprising if there are others.
Thanks to guys like Boom, Ksteelheader, TomB and so many others for sharing their knowledge openly on the boards. If not for them and others, I would realize a whole lot less in this game.
There is an old saying :
Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
There are 1952 quarter proofs that look very much like type B that are doubled dies (and it is more than one) made from both the business strike and proof hubs.
The 1952 Super Bird is famous. There is one of the doubled dies with a U shaped die crack. I call that the Under Bird. Unfortunately, the doubling is not too apparent on this one. The die crack is the best pick up point.
Of course with the 1936, a very few 1968 S and 1973 to date quarters the same hub was used for both proof and circulation strikes.
Look at this 1952 proof quarter.
http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2692&lot=1407 starting point
http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2692&lot=1407&imagetype=d2 DjVu
Looks just like a B, eh? Now look at that ES gap in STATES. I think it opened up later with die wear.
I can't believe I let this slip by.
A few of the 1968 S quarters come with 2 different business artwork designs and both are very scarce.
About 1/4 are the proof style type B reverse.
About 3/4 are the clad proof style reverse used on proofs this one year only - type M.
Perhaps 1% are the circulation style used 1965-1969 and 2 % are the revised circulation style used 1967-1972 (yes, they overlap). Anyhow I find them impossible to find and James Wiles had the latter one on his want list, the last I knew.
Wondercoin