1787 Massachusetts Cent confirmed Ryder 8-G variety! Update PCGS grade added

Hussulo

1787 Massachusetts Cent

What are your impressions of this coin:



If it was sent to PCGS would it slab and at what grade? ( I was thinking VF35)

Also can anyone tell me what variety it is?

I was looking through the Coinfact website:
http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/1787_ma_cents/1787_ma_cents_by_variety.htm

But can't find an exact match with the ones shown.

It is similar to the one on the front page but the Native Americans face seems thinner and longer on the one I've shown. The top of the star however is pointing in the same direction (on some varieties the top of the star points straight up).

TomB

The Notre Dame site is especially useful for Colonial issues.

MrEureka

Should 40, solidly.

Hussulo

Thank you both. Great site Tom, having looked at it I believe it to be a Ryder 6-G variety.

It has to be a G as it has a widely spaced 78 in date. It can't be an obverse 3 or 2B because the top of the star points straight up in the 3 and 2B.

Out of the two options left (6 & 8) I believe it more closely resembles the 6.

Anyone agree/disagree?

MidLifeCrisis

I really like the Notre Dame site and use it all the time. However, I'm not sure how you could definitively determine anything from this chart or the other pics on the site.

However, comparing your coin to this one on CoinFacts, I agree with you that it's most likely a Ryder 6-G.

I do recommend you send it to PCGS. Hard to say what grade they would give it though.

Hussulo

I agree the image on Notre Dame isn't the best but if you click on it it does go bigger.

Out of curiosity do PCGS now assign the Ryder varieties on the slabs?

MidLifeCrisis

Since images of many of the varieties are not available on the CoinFacts site, I went to the auction catalog for Stack's John J. Ford, Jr. Collection, Part V, which contains his collection of Mass coppers. I highly recommend you get a copy of this and all other Ford catalogs.

After looking through that reference, I'm not sure that the placement of the arrow feathers on your coin matches the Ryder 6 obverse. The placement on your coin seems a bit lower. And, as you noted, the face doesn't seem to match the "Stout Indian" nickname this variety is known for. But I'm no expert and I'm not sure how much any of that matters.

I found no other die combination matching your coin more closely than the Ryder 6-G, though.

Hussulo

Thank you for taking the time out to research it. I will look into acquiring the books you mentioned.

Are there any specialists out there that I could email for help on this one?

You have a valid point about the arrow feathers. Although close I too am not 100% convinced it is the Ryder Obv 6 variety.

A new variety perhaps?

MidLifeCrisis

PM sent.

Hussulo

Just had another look at the Notre Dame site.

The shape of the Native American and the is placement of the arrow feathers is more like obverse 2A and 2B,
however the star isn't pointing straight up like 2A and 2B.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>Just had another look at the Notre Dame site.

The shape of the Native American and the is placement of the arrow feathers is more like obverse 2A and 2B,
however the star isn't pointing straight up like 2A and 2B. >>


Aren't colonials fun?

Hussulo

Sure are.

That's what I really like about numismatics, getting down to the nitty gritty and looking at varieties and details.

Thanks for the PM.

Dentuck

Hussulo, I would be remiss if I didn't point you in the direction of the Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, by Q. David Bowers. If you're a member of the American Numismatic Association, you can borrow a copy from the ANA library for free.

Hussulo

Thanks Dentuck. I don't normally collect US coins although the one pictured caught my eye.

I'm a member of the BNS (British Numismatics Society) but if I do add more US coins to my collection I may look at joining the American Numismatic Association.

I'll see if I can get a hold of a copy of it in the UK.

That's what I love about this place everyone's so helpful.

DoctorPaper

To me, this looks like an R8-G. The are only about 15 of these known. You might be a bit optimistic on your grading though. The degree of wear on the tunic on the obverse and the word cent on the reverse is more typical of about 10 points less than VF35. The 2 hits on the chest of the eagle above cent liklely won't result in PCGS body bagging the coin, but will make it more likely to fall into the lower VF range, rather than the higher one. But American colonial collectors by Ryder type generally don't care much about whether a rare variety is in plastic. The surfaces look pretty nice, and that's important for colonials, since many are porous or have been modified in negative ways. However, if this is confirmed to be an R8-G, it would be one of the nicest ones known and worth a nice premium beyond a generic VF Massacusetts cent.

I don't think there's any question the reverse is a G. This reverse is linked with the following obverses: 2, 3, 6, and 8. It is definitely not a 6 based on the end of the bow being on the ground for that obverse. It's not a 2 or 3 obverse because the end of the arrow is under the middle of the "E" rather than the upright of the E. Ergo it's the rare obverse 8. I've got good pictures of all these types and that's seems to match all the characteristcs of an 8-G, star pointing over head, 7 fold tunic, bow above moccasin and high, end of collar extending into field, etc. Congrats, this is a rare one in any condition, but especially above fine, which this one is definitely.

Perhaps Colonial Coin Union will chime in to confirm my opinion. This is a tough series to attribute.

If you do get interested in colonials, the Whitman book mentioned above, edited by Q. David Bowers is great, and has pictures of most of the various varieties. In particular, it is the best guide for Massachusets cents I have seen. It has good pictures of all the varieties. Prior to it, you needed to have a collection of old auction catalogues to have decent pictures of all the varieties. You saw how incomplete and what poor pictures the internet sites were for this particular series when you began your attempted attribution.

DoctorPaper

I’ve been doing a little research on your coin which looks to me (and me alone so far) as a Ryder 8-G. It turns out this variety is even more rare than I thought it was. When I started looking for images of the 8-G obverse, they were very hard to find. There were none in the Heritage archives, and none in many major colonial auctions, including the Ford Collection, the Taylor Collection and the Roper Collection. I found one counter-marked, porous specimen in the Norweb Collection, and an example in Bowers’ new Whitman Colonial encyclopedia, which are pictured below. The pix are not the best, but are from scans. I hope I have given sufficient credit to the primary sources for use of their coin pictures.

Here is Bowers’ description of Ryder 8 in his book, This obverse is in the general category of obverses where “The Top of Arrow Shaft is Under the Center of ‘E’”

“One ray of star points over head. Star is lower on its left side. Diagnostic. Tunic has seven pleats, with the closest to the arrow particularly thick. Bottom of bow ends well above the moccasin and the mound. End of collar extends into the field below the chin.”

The pictures seem to match your coin. The only thing I notice that seems a little different is the shape of the arrowhead, but that can vary a bit with strike and wear. Otherwise, the match seems to be very good. I’m hoping some of our colonial big guns will chime in, because, the rarer you think a new discovery coin is, the less likely you are to be correct, and this coin, if it is an 8-G would be a huge rarity, and in certainly in high condition census for the variety.

Scans of obverse 8’s:

MidLifeCrisis

Good work, DoctorPaper. Your argument is compelling. Hussulo may indeed have a Ryder 8-G!

Hussulo

Is there a party emoticon?

Thanks a lot DoctorPaper for taking the time out to research my coin. I'm getting a little exited as your points for it being an Ryder 8-G seem very valid.

Hussulo

I've took some new pictures of it with my digital camera tonight which I believe show of its toning better:

numisma

I agree with DoctorPaper on this one. It looks like Ryder 8-G to me as well. I took the images provided and made a few quick overlays to minimize doubt. The shape differences of the star and the Indian's leg had me scratching my head, but this can be attributed to wear, I believe. Again, the overlays are rough due to time constraints and the fact that they are out of scale in relation to X and Y. I made some scaling adjustments and the results are posted below. The first image is an overlay showing the differences. It is a very close match. The other three pics show three different levels of transparency in the overlay--from 100%, to 50%, and with no transparency (Hussulo's coin). If this is indeed a Ryder 8-G, then congratulations. What a great find, especially considering the condition. This variety was missing in the Taylor, Roper, Garrett, Ford, and Picker sales, although I believe Richard Picker owned an 8-G at one time.


Subtraction of design differences


100% transparency (Norweb coin shown)


About 50% transparency with Hussulo's coin in brown-red and the Norweb coin in grayscale. Note the match between Hussulo's coin and the Norweb specimen. The counterstamp is visible in the center.


No transparency (only Hussulo's coin shown)

Hussulo

Thanks for taking the time out to do the overlays Numisma and thanks to everyone who has helped via the PM's and by posting in this thread.

I can confirm that it is a Ryder 8-G, not only by what has been said here and through PM's but I also emailed Mr David Bowers at Stacks and both him and Mr John Pack confirmed that it was an 8-G and offered to auction it in one of there up coming auctions.

I have decided to hang onto it for the time being as it has sparked off an interest in Colonial coins for me. I always liked it regardless of it's type but I guess it is extra special to me now.

I'll have a giveaway in a few weeks as a little thank you to the forum and all it's helpful members. I don't have many US coins but I'll buy one for a giveaway. I was thinking of something like a commemorative 1/2 Dollar but I'll take a look and see if anything catches my eye.

Thanks once again,
Hus

DoctorPaper

Nice job Numisma!! I'm pretty certain on this one. The denticles and letter tops also line up nicely like an 8G, and WEALTH on 8 G's is spaced WE AL TH, as on this coin.
Love your overlays. I don't have the capacity to do those with the archaic photo manipulation program I use. I understand the OP is consulting major colonial dealers as to their opinions on the coin. Preliminarily, one response has been positive.

Hussulo

Update:

I sent the coin off to PCGS and its been graded it VF25BN.

I was hopping for VF30 but at VF25 I think its definitely PQ for the grade. Some people posting did estimate up to EF40 for its grade judging by the pictures.

I also don't know if they have added the type "Ryder 8-G" on the slab yet but it was mentioned on the submission.

Colonial and Early American Coins by Q. David Bowers says:

"Grade availability: Mike Packard has recorded 13 pieces, Rare above Fine. Rarity: URS-5

F-12 $2,500, VF-20 $5,000, EF 40- $10,000 no grade higher given"

ajaan

Very nice coin and I think undergraded. But I don't know that much about colonials.

Hussulo

Thanks for sending it in for me ajaan.