ebay question... can a seller do this??? Update
leathtech
Posts: 3,191 ✭
I won a buy it now auction that says free shipping and paid ASAP... now the seller e-mail me:
All boxes must be insured. Would you please send me $3.45 for the insurance. send to
Can the seller do this??? isn't he just abusing the ebay free shipping thing and forcing me to pay part of the shipping price even though it says free?
USPS insurance should only be $2.45 anyway!
All boxes must be insured. Would you please send me $3.45 for the insurance. send to
Can the seller do this??? isn't he just abusing the ebay free shipping thing and forcing me to pay part of the shipping price even though it says free?
USPS insurance should only be $2.45 anyway!
0
Comments
If he wants the sale, he will ship the item.
<< <i>I won a buy it now auction that says free shipping and paid ASAP... now the seller e-mail me:
All boxes must be insured. Would you please send me $3.45 for the insurance. send to
Can the seller do this??? isn't he just abusing the ebay free shipping thing and forcing me to pay part of the shipping price even though it says free?
USPS insurance should only be $2.45 anyway! >>
I think the little weasel seller is just seeing what he can get away with.
"Free shipping" is supposed to mean insurance is included.
<< <i>I didn't think free shipping includes insurance. When I offer free shipping I don't include insurance, but I make it optional not mandatory. If he's actually getting insurance on the package he's only making $1.00 extra. That's hardly worth the effort and the chance that it will cause a problem with the buyer. I agree, I wouldn't pay a cent. >>
I agree with you insurance does not have to be included in Free shipping but I also don't think you can or should force buyers to take it. I did report the seller to ebay... I wonder if ebay will do anything.
If it's not stated, then he's shaking you down and I wouldn't pay it either. Plus USPS insurance up to $200 is $2.60, not $3.45. Unless he's shipping UPS, then I don't know the rates.
If it's a wax box, it sounds like you can buy that on ebay elsewhere, no?
(Some folks may find the lingo a little ambiguous, I do not.)
Free shipping:
Sellers may offer free shipping to select or all destinations.
For a destination denoted as free shipping, no other fees related to shipping, handling, or packaging may be charged.
/////////////
To me, it means excatly what it says.
Personally I think he is just trying to get the free ebay perks of offering free shipping and then forcing the buyer to pay insurance to make some money back on his free shipping offer.
He might get away with doing this but he will not be getting my money!
ebay link
<< <i>To be fair to the seller yes it does say insurance is required I just felt it was BS and would give it a shot... if he does not want my $120 and wants to get into a pi$$'ing match over $3.45 I will just ask for a refund and give my money to someone else.
Personally I think he is just trying to get the free ebay perks of offering free shipping and then forcing the buyer to pay insurance to make some money back on his free shipping offer.
He might get away with doing this but he will not be getting my money! >>
Comments.
1. Never pay for something that is separate (e.g. separate shipping insurance). The seller is always responsible for the delivery of the item, despite any disclaimers to the contrary. If he wants to increase his shipping costs, so be it, but it should never be a separate item.
2. You have met your obligation by paying the $120. I believe that not delivering the item at this time may be fraudulent unless a full refund is given.
Mike
<< <i>Shipping is free for a limited time but does not include insurance. Please wait so we can invoice you for the insurance. There are no exceptions to this. Indiana residents will need to pay 7% sales tax. We only ship to confirmed addresses there are no exceptions. Hawaii and Alaska may be extra. The box in the picture is not the box you will receive. We have a few cases available if needed (we are not looking to discount them). Please wait to be invoiced so the insurance can be put on the invoice./Q]
The seller does have it in the bottom of the description, but I think it still sucks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Shipping is free for a limited time but does not include insurance. Please wait so we can invoice you for the insurance. There are no exceptions to this. Indiana residents will need to pay 7% sales tax. We only ship to confirmed addresses there are no exceptions. Hawaii and Alaska may be extra. The box in the picture is not the box you will receive. We have a few cases available if needed (we are not looking to discount them). Please wait to be invoiced so the insurance can be put on the invoice./Q]
The seller does have it in the bottom of the description, but I think it still sucks. >>
I agree it does suck and I would even pay more for the box since BBCE is selling them for around $140 + Shipping... But I will not be forced to pay for insurance from this guy when he is just skirting around ebay policies... If I play by the rules on ebay he should have to.
When an item is listed with free shipping and seller has mandatory insurance, the auction will say
Insurance
Included in S&H
I don't know why ebay doesn't allow a seller to have free shipping and charge mandatory insurance.
Since I have not read any rule stating that insurance can't be charged with free shipping.
So what some sellers do is not check the mandatory shipping, and just include that in the description "Insurance is mandatory"
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
/////////////////
EBAY TOS
Free shipping:
Sellers may offer free shipping to select or all destinations.
For a destination denoted as free shipping, no other fees related to shipping, handling, or packaging may be charged.
.............
EBAY will remove a listing that is reported for offering "free" shipping
and charges for mandatory insurance.
Then what is the problem? If anything I'd complain that the rate is high.
Steve
The reason insurance cannot be included with shipping is because the seller usually has no firm idea what the item will end at - so the insurance cost is unknown.
<< <i>I also think insurance is a separate charge. He is still shipping it for free - that is, he is getting it from his house to yours on his expense. Insurance has nothing to do with that - it is protection.
The reason insurance cannot be included with shipping is because the seller usually has no firm idea what the item will end at - so the insurance cost is unknown. >>
The seller did know it was a buy it now auction, IMO the seller is just making this insurance thing up to recover some of the free shipping costs.
<< <i>"...Since I have not read any rule stating that insurance can't be charged with free shipping...."
/////////////////
EBAY TOS
Free shipping:
Sellers may offer free shipping to select or all destinations.
For a destination denoted as free shipping, no other fees related to shipping, handling, or packaging may be charged.
.............
EBAY will remove a listing that is reported for offering "free" shipping
and charges for mandatory insurance. >>
Will see if that's the case I've reported his selling practices to ebay will see how many of his auctions go poof - this seems to be something this seller likes to do!
<< <i>Mike 926, your pig is freakin' me out ......................................and i have completely lost my train of thought. (sigh) >>
It isn't my pig, and it isn't me. I picked the avatar when i first joined.
value in and of itself.
Not sure I'd be as upset over this as some here are.
Steve
All sales are final. Shipping is free and does not include insurance. Insurance is required. Indiana residents will need to pay 6% sales tax. If you choose not to take the insurance and there is a problem there will be no free replacements.
what he still does not get is that paypal would side with the buyer and refund the purchase price if there was no proof that the item was ever delivered.
Steve
<< <i>Leah what do you mean change? Was that not the TOS when you purchased the box?
Steve >>
he has started to change some of his auctions the one that I one said the following:
Shipping is free for a limited time but does not include insurance. Please wait so we can invoice you for the insurance. There are no exceptions to this. Indiana residents will need to pay 7% sales tax. We only ship to confirmed addresses there are no exceptions.
To: United States
Service: US Postal Service Priority Mail Flat Rate Box®, Estimated delivery Varies UPS delivers within 2 - 3 days after seller ships item
Insurance: None
Regardless of what he puts in his description, I believe his Shipping and handling details at the bottom of the auction is what eBay would enforce.
However, you can never force an unwilling buyer to pay...just as you can never force an unwilling seller to ship.
My advice would be to ask for an immediate refund and move on. Spend the extra money and get it from BBCE.
<< <i>Shipping and Handling: Free shipping
To: United States
Service: US Postal Service Priority Mail Flat Rate Box®, Estimated delivery Varies UPS delivers within 2 - 3 days after seller ships item
Insurance: None
Regardless of what he puts in his description, I believe his Shipping and handling details at the bottom of the auction is what eBay would enforce. >>
I was going to point out the same thing. His official auction terms list "None" so that's what applies.
This is yet another seller that things insurance is just another way to gouge their buyers into paying Ebay fees or whatever. And that without it, they can ship/damage the cards and not be liable. Doesn't work that way, sorry!
Tabe
If you are able to remove the listing probably you won't be able to buy it anyway
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
<< <i>"...Since I have not read any rule stating that insurance can't be charged with free shipping...."
/////////////////
EBAY TOS
Free shipping:
Sellers may offer free shipping to select or all destinations.
For a destination denoted as free shipping, no other fees related to shipping, handling, or packaging may be charged.
.............
EBAY will remove a listing that is reported for offering "free" shipping
and charges for mandatory insurance. >>
I never considered it as a fee if the exact insurance was being charge, so I just pay it.
In this ebay post the users say it is against ebay rules as well
http://forums.ebay.com/db1/topic/Packaging-Shipping/Insurance-Shipping-38/510086131
Have you seen listing removed because of mandatory insurance?
The times where I have had a problem is when the listing does not say it, and it is just added to the invoice.
Also before some sellers would say free shipping
but then on the listing mention only with no paypal.
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
He offered free shipping. It's clearly stated insurance is a separate charge. It's even in a diff. color text at the bottom. He ask's buyers to wait for the invoice so insurance can be added. You didn't read his entire description. You (the buyer) are partially to blame for this misunderstanding.
I don't think the seller is gouging you at all or trying to make up for ebay/pp fee's or whatever.
If you did a search of ebay and this item came up in your search, then I'm sure you had other similar '92 Bowman wax boxes to choose from to compare the prices and buy and were able to factor in all the costs.
My only complaint with the seller would be if he had this as a BIN or store item, he knew what the final bid/cost would be and he knew what the final insurance amount would cost.
So that amount should be stated in the listing.....somewhere. He's shipping using USPS, insurance would run only $2.60 for up to $200 of coverage. So here is where my only beef would be with the seller. And since it's less than a dollar he might be making off of me as a buyer, I would pay it, and just never buy from them again, and move on.
I don't think the seller loses a charge back as long as they ship the item with delivery confirmation. Insurance or no insurance.
In today's ebay, even sellers that offer free shipping cannot win or have happy customers. Everyone's got a beef!
/////////////////////////////////////
That's sorta true.
The problem here is that EBAY's TOS specifically prohibit the
added insurance fee on listings that offer "free" shipping.
...............
A smart buyer will win a SNAD claim - almost everytime - if he
receives a damaged item, whether or not the item was insured.
........
BIN sellers simply need to add ALL the costs of the "free" shipping
into their BIN price.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>Only on eBay would the seller expect the buyer to insure delivery of an item he has absolutely no control over. Is there any other internet seller that tries to pull that off? >>
////////////////////////
It's complicated.
In ordinary commerce, the buyer is often/usually required to
accept responsibility for loss/damage OR pay for the insurance.
EBAY has created a hybrid thing; an venue on the one hand, a
perceived super-merchant on the other hand.
Since consumer traffic is not willing to bear the risk of loss - and
EBAY's merchant hat only fits as long as consumers keep coming -
EBAY has placed the burden of "guaranteed delivery" on their
advertisers ----- the SELLERS.
EBAY is happy to allow sellers to charge for the necessary insurance.
They just don't allow them to charge ala carte, IF they are getting the
"benefits" of offering "free" shipping.
As noted, the solution is simple. The seller simply adds the cost of
the insurance into his BIN price.
................
EBAY TOS
"Molon Labe"
//////////////////////////////////////////
I said:
"In ordinary commerce, the buyer is often/usually required to
accept responsibility for loss/damage OR pay for the insurance."
.....
The UCC has not been newly crafted to perfectly accommodate
retail ecommerce. It prolly never will; the credit card companies -
and the mere ultra-competitive nature of the internet - make the
general rules of the UCC redundant in the "internet sales world."
......
It is also important to understand that ALL expenses of a working
business are paid for by BUYERS. Whether or not a cost is collected
as an add-on - or included in the retail price - that cost is paid for
by the end user of the merch.
Thus, neither I nor EBAY have any problem with sellers charging
for insurance. The problem is that the instant seller collected
the benefits of offering "free" shipping, and then tried to charge
extra for a "shipping related" service.
"Molon Labe"
...............added the cost of 'free' shipping/insurance into his BIN.
I still have no problem with what the seller was doing.
Just a case of no good deed goes unpunished.
Steve
the benefits of offering "free" shipping, and then tried to charge
extra for a "shipping related" service
Yes I understand that. He got greater placement in search.
Maybe the add on is wrong and I should reevaluate my stance.
Steve
<< <i>
////////////////////////
It's complicated.
In ordinary commerce, the buyer is often/usually required to
accept responsibility for loss/damage OR pay for the insurance.
>>
Can you give a specific reference to this "ordinary commerce" rule? The rule as you specify is vague (e.g. the words "often/usually). My understanding, and also from a common sense viewpoint, is that the seller is always responsible. The reason is that the seller already has the funds, and there are many possible malicious actions that could be done by the seller to create non-delivery if the buyer is responsible. For example, the seller could simply not ship the item.
<< <i>The way the auction reads, I see nothing the seller did wrong.
He offered free shipping. It's clearly stated insurance is a separate charge. It's even in a diff. color text at the bottom. He ask's buyers to wait for the invoice so insurance can be added. You didn't read his entire description. You (the buyer) are partially to blame for this misunderstanding.
I don't think the seller is gouging you at all or trying to make up for ebay/pp fee's or whatever.
If you did a search of ebay and this item came up in your search, then I'm sure you had other similar '92 Bowman wax boxes to choose from to compare the prices and buy and were able to factor in all the costs.
My only complaint with the seller would be if he had this as a BIN or store item, he knew what the final bid/cost would be and he knew what the final insurance amount would cost.
So that amount should be stated in the listing.....somewhere. He's shipping using USPS, insurance would run only $2.60 for up to $200 of coverage. So here is where my only beef would be with the seller. And since it's less than a dollar he might be making off of me as a buyer, I would pay it, and just never buy from them again, and move on.
I don't think the seller loses a charge back as long as they ship the item with delivery confirmation. Insurance or no insurance.
In today's ebay, even sellers that offer free shipping cannot win or have happy customers. Everyone's got a beef! >>
There's a couple of holes in your arguement.
1) The auction does not state Insurance is required. There's a HUGE difference between stating insurance isn't included and stating it's required.
2) He's charging more for insurance than actual cost, which is a violation of eBay's TOS. Additionally, doesn't matter if you think he's gouging or not, it's still a eBay violation.
<< <i>
In today's ebay, even sellers that offer free shipping cannot win or have happy customers. Everyone's got a beef! >>
So you think just because the seller is being nice and offer free shipping it gives them the right to violate ebay's rules and TOS... am I understanding you correctly???
I've e-mailed the seller back and asked for a full refund... we'll where this goes, I find it hard to believe this guy would want to give up his 100% feedback over this!
Can you give a specific reference to this "ordinary commerce" rule? The rule as you specify is vague (e.g. the words "often/usually). My understanding, and also from a common sense viewpoint, is that the seller is always responsible. The reason is that the seller already has the funds, and there are many possible malicious actions that could be done by the seller to create non-delivery if the buyer is responsible. For example, the seller could simply not ship the item. >>
////////////////////////////////
Here is the complete, but unannotated, UCC.
Complete UCC ua
..............
As a general practice - for centuries - merchants have assumed that
liability for delivery loss/damage has rested with the buyer.
The seller - on behalf of the buyer and using buyer' funds - has made
insured delivery arrangements as agreed between b/s.
Such commerce between eager b/s - as opposed to willing b/s -
has not been fraught with the risks of fraud/deception that is perceived
to exist on the internet.
The schemes of offer/acceptance/payment/delivery have worked perfectly
under the UCC. Because internet retailers - previously "mail order" sellers -
are seen by retail consumers as only semi-trustworthy, certain burdens
have been shifted to vendors; one such burden is "near absolute liability
for delivery." (This has not alterd the ability of the b/s to agree who shall
pay the costs of freight and insurance, but it has - due to credit-card
company policies - placed a higher duty of performance on the seller.)
........
Twice a month, in a small biznez, I ship two large palletized loads of merch.
The items are sold FOB, and the buyer faxes me shipping coupons that
are given to his carrier on pickup. From the moment I receive payment, the
goods BELONG to the buyer. If they are lost/damaged in transit, the buyer's
insurance covers the loss. I have ZERO post-sale liability in the transactions.
(Our "ordinary commerce" system has worked this way forever, and has
been governed by the concepts detailed in the UCC.)
<< <i>
<< <i>Can you give a specific reference to this "ordinary commerce" rule? The rule as you specify is vague (e.g. the words "often/usually). My understanding, and also from a common sense viewpoint, is that the seller is always responsible. The reason is that the seller already has the funds, and there are many possible malicious actions that could be done by the seller to create non-delivery if the buyer is responsible. For example, the seller could simply not ship the item. >>
////////////////////////////////
Here is the complete, but unannotated, UCC.
Complete UCC ua
Twice a month, in a small biznez, I ship two large palletized loads of merch.
The items are sold FOB, and the buyer faxes me shipping coupons that
are given to his carrier on pickup. From the moment I receive payment, the
goods BELONG to the buyer. If they are lost/damaged in transit, the buyer's
insurance covers the loss. I have ZERO post-sale liability in the transactions.
(Our "ordinary commerce" system has worked this way forever, and has
been governed by the concepts detailed in the UCC.) >>
Couple comments here.
Regarding the UCC, please point me to the specific section(s) that states that the buyer is responsible in ordinary commerce.
Regarding your palletized loads example, there are major issues. First, it is the buyer who selects the carrier. As such, the buyer is responsible, as the carrier acts as his agent. However, in many cases, the seller selects the shipping carrier. I believe there is a major distinction here. The basic question is "For whom does the carrier act as an agent?"
<< <i>Couple comments here.
Regarding the UCC, please point me to the specific section(s) that states that the buyer is responsible in ordinary commerce.
Regarding your palletized loads example, there are major issues. First, it is the buyer who selects the carrier. As such, the buyer is responsible, as the carrier acts as his agent. However, in many cases, the seller selects the shipping agent. I believe there is a major distinction here. The basic question is "For whom does the carrier act as an agent?" >>
//////////////////////
The UCC link is indexed.
If I get time, I will pull some cites for you.
........
The real issue is when does title pass to the merch.
Not, who selects the shipping agent. BUT, that is not
an issue on most EBAY sales because it is agreed to
upfront when the buyer accepts the terms of the seller's
listing........including the listed shipping agent.
(On EBAY, b/s are still free to negotiate/agree who the shipping
agent will be.)
FAILURE to deliver is fully covered under the UCC and,
obviously, there are sundry protections/remedies for
buyers who do not receive their merch due to acts or
failures to act of the seller.
..........
In the real world, not the EBAY/internet world, the rsik of not getting
the merch you ordered and paid for is small.
The challenge that e-biznez now faces is how to teach an unsophisticated
customer base how to perform like buyers do in the real world. With the
credit card-companies in the middle - and fierce competition - that challenge
is not likely to be met.
Thus, a new e-version of the UCC needs to be evolved and put into practice.
That will happen, and online sellers will adapt to the new schemes.
..............
wiki's fun take on the UCC
////////////////////
////////////////////////
////////////////////////////
From a November 2008 thread on the coin side.:
Starting at about page 467 of the link below, the concepts of "risk of loss" that are covered by UCC are discussed.
UCC: Risk Of Loss Concepts
The various states have incorporated/modified the general UCC notions
into statutes and regulations.
TONS of case law is recorded on the subject, and can be read on the internet.
Most or all state legislatures have websites that include the statutes. All are
well indexed and easy to navigate. UCC is well codified within each.
30
Ebay is creating so many variations of fees, fee schedules, listing discounts, DSR numbers, feedback numbers, etc etc, it sounds like the US tax code being created all over again.