Understanding the Dealer who prices his coins for high amounts.

Halfhunter06 · March 31, 2009 8:34AM

Just getting back from Baltimore I was reminded of 2 dealers there who seem to have one passion... To price most or all of their coins at what I see to be outrageous levels. Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices?

PCcoins · March 31, 2009 8:36AM

They get lucky and snag a dummy, and it didn't happen to you

ColonialCoinUnion · March 31, 2009 8:39AM

<< Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

Without knowing what coins they were, and how much they were, it's pretty hard to answer your question.

AU58WALKERS · March 31, 2009 8:43AM

"To price most or all of thier coins at what I see to be outgrageous levels. "

based on what? the gray sheet, the red book, past auctions, coin world?

TwoSides2aCoin · March 31, 2009 8:47AM

HH, did you discuss this with those individual dealers by any chance ? Was there any discussion on any particular coins ? I'm innocently curious.

pennyannie · March 31, 2009 8:47AM

Some dealers go for the kill. Someone out there is always ready and willing to pay a premium for something that the rest of us will not. I go to a lot of local shows. You usually see the same dealers at each one. I think some of the more "seasoned" ones do not really care if they sell many coins are not. Sure it would be nice to make big sales but some of these dealers are basicly retired and have enough cash to live on. They are in a position in life to where they do not have to make a sale to put food on the table and keep the lights on. So they raise the prices. Hell some are just greedy IMO. I hope that i never get that way.

ArizonaJack · March 31, 2009 8:50AM

Was one of them a longtime Northern California dealer and a big whole page advertiser in CW and NN for 40+ years? I cannot understand how that fellow can sell ANY coins......

thisnamztaken · March 31, 2009 8:59AM

<< Just getting back from Baltimore I was reminded of 2 dealers there who seem to have one passion... To price most or all of thier coins at what I see to be outgrageous levels. Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

Let me think. One possibility might be GREED!

Naw. Couldn't be that, could it? Of course, not knowing the individuals you referred to, who knows?

PerryHall · March 31, 2009 9:04AM

<< HH, did you discuss this with those individual dealers by any chance ? Was there any discussion on any particular coins ? I'm innocently curious. >>

Asking a coin dealer why his coins are overpriced is like asking a mother why her baby is so ugly.

RYK · March 31, 2009 9:09AM

To price most or all of thier coins at what I see to be outgrageous levels. Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices?

The way the question has been phrased (not to mention the Legendary spelling gaffes) and the lack of specific information provided in the OP guarantees that we will not get a meaningful answer to your question in this thread.

mrpotatoheadd · March 31, 2009 9:10AM

<< Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

Just a WAG, but maybe they've determined that that particular practice works best for them?

RedTiger · March 31, 2009 9:12AM

Some buyers are less price sensitive than others. Some dealers move more volume than others. Some make more per coin than others. It is like anything else: a person can buy a burger for $1, for $5, $10, or $20. Some dress shirts cost $15, some $35, some $100, some $500. Some shoes cost $20, some $50, some $250, some $1000. Which hamburger, which shirt, which shoes does a person choose to buy? Is there a "right" price for everyone?

FatMan · March 31, 2009 9:29AM

It is a sure fire formula to end up in Costa Rica with a babe on each arm.

rgCoinGuy · March 31, 2009 9:52AM

<< It is a sure fire formula to end up in Costa Rica with a babe on each arm.

>>

Did he have three arms?

shorecoll · March 31, 2009 10:19AM

I have always been told that Jack Beymer prices by estimated replacement cost. He tries to stock as many rare varieties as possible but prices them at list + a couple years expected appreciation. I have bought from Jack in the past (as do quite a few other people) but only if I can't find what I need somewhere else. FYI, I just sold a couple of raw 62's I got from him ten years ago as newly slabbed 64's.

Blackhawk · March 31, 2009 10:27AM

A lot of businesses have discovered that making a profit on sales of their product puts more bread on the table than giving each person who walks by their choice of a coin at no cost. I know, it's crazy.

WTCG · March 31, 2009 10:30AM

Whoever owns a coin has the right to price that coin at any price amount they desire. It might sound shocking, but many of those high price dealers are able to get those lofty numbers for their coins.

Bochiman · March 31, 2009 10:33AM

One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)?

ArizonaJack · March 31, 2009 10:35AM

Ok, I'll say this. I come from the " keep the money moving mentality " than the " wait for the top price" sort of folks....thats because I am a not of deep pockets type dealer, a quickie 5 or 10% is great, even a 3% on a high dollar item is better than sitting 9 months to make the 20-30%

As I learn this crazy biz, I am certain I will make adjustments to my method......but as it is today, I have outlined my thoughts and biz model

WTCG · March 31, 2009 10:38AM

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers.

speety · March 31, 2009 10:38AM

<< "To price most or all of thier coins at what I see to be outgrageous levels. "

based on what? the gray sheet, the red book, past auctions, coin world? >>

Ummm one dealer i'm interested in a couple of there coins but they have them at 50% more than the auction they last sold at, baltimore from a couple days ago! And no, these coins didn't 'squeak' through the cracks and sell for too cheap.

JSsson · March 31, 2009 10:44AM

Dealers have the right to price their coins at whatever the most they think they could get for the coins and I don't fault them for that but I know some local dealers who have had the same coins in their cases for a very long time. There could be a variety of reasons for pricing their coins so high but the first thing that comes to mind is that the dealer is a reluctant seller of those coins. Maybe he paid too much for it or he likes it too much to sell it for a reasonable price.

RYK · March 31, 2009 10:46AM

<< 

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers. >>

I second that. Compared to the frothy Anaconda toners of the past, Dennis' coins seem dirt cheap (though he did show me and shock me with a $1000 Morgan toner), he is pleasant, courteous, and great with kids. I have made several purchases from Dennis in the past, and he is a genuine and good guy.

MikeInFL · March 31, 2009 10:49AM

<< 

<< 

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers. >>

I second that. Compared to the frothy Anaconda toners of the past, Dennis' coins seem dirt cheap (though he did show me and shock me with a $1000 Morgan toner), he is pleasant, courteous, and great with kids. I have made several purchases from Dennis in the past, and he is a genuine and good guy. >>

Perhaps I'm just cynical today, but they used to say the same thing about Adrian.

MikeInFL · March 31, 2009 10:50AM

p.s. I have had no dealings whatsoever with Dennis. However, after the glowing words shared by two folks I respect, I may have to take a look.

fc · March 31, 2009 10:54AM

not really much to understand. they price them high looking for a fish
to nibble the bait and take the hook into their mouth. Leaves some
room for the ability to lower the price a bit and allows a nice profit
for the dealer.

You might as well ask why most buy it nows on ebay are overpriced...
same thing.

RYK · March 31, 2009 11:03AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers. >>

I second that. Compared to the frothy Anaconda toners of the past, Dennis' coins seem dirt cheap (though he did show me and shock me with a $1000 Morgan toner), he is pleasant, courteous, and great with kids. I have made several purchases from Dennis in the past, and he is a genuine and good guy. >>

Perhaps I'm just cynical today, but they used to say the same thing about Adrian.

>>

Anaconda is great with kids? Would you leave him alone with your daughter?

fc · March 31, 2009 11:04AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers. >>

I second that. Compared to the frothy Anaconda toners of the past, Dennis' coins seem dirt cheap (though he did show me and shock me with a $1000 Morgan toner), he is pleasant, courteous, and great with kids. I have made several purchases from Dennis in the past, and he is a genuine and good guy. >>

Perhaps I'm just cynical today, but they used to say the same thing about Adrian.

>>

Anaconda is great with kids? Would you leave him alone with your daughter?

>>

lol. and from what i heard.. his dating days in the islands did not end
well to boot!

MikeInFL · March 31, 2009 11:06AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< One of them didn't have nicely toned items but wanting more than a mint for them, was he? Dennis King (from WI I think)? >>

I like Dennis King and I have purchased coins from him plenty of times. Compared to the other "rainbow" dealers his prices aren't the most outrageous and Dennis is almost always willing to negotiate prices with serious buyers. >>

I second that. Compared to the frothy Anaconda toners of the past, Dennis' coins seem dirt cheap (though he did show me and shock me with a $1000 Morgan toner), he is pleasant, courteous, and great with kids. I have made several purchases from Dennis in the past, and he is a genuine and good guy. >>

Perhaps I'm just cynical today, but they used to say the same thing about Adrian.

>>

Anaconda is great with kids? Would you leave him alone with your daughter?

>>

I wouldn't leave him alone with my cat. Then again, I never bought a coin from him either. Coincidence?

CoinJunkie · March 31, 2009 11:09AM

<< 

<< Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

Without knowing what coins they were, and how much they were, it's pretty hard to answer your question. >>

I don't know about that. There are several dealers I see at every show who price coins at tremendous
premiums to sheet across the board. Now granted, they usually have PQ stuff, but so do a number of
other dealers who charge more "realistic" prices.

Halfhunter06 · March 31, 2009 11:27AM

OK just to clarify everything. Basically ALL their coins from Indian pennies to Morgan Dollars were VERY overpriced. There is nothing specific here, just in general.

RichieURich · March 31, 2009 11:39AM

<< 

<< Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

Without knowing what coins they were, and how much they were, it's pretty hard to answer your question. >>

What CCU said. What the coins were, how PQ they were, and what the prices were are significant factors. How much is "outrageous levels"? Double Bid? Triple Bid?
How about 4 to 8 times Bid?

Some of the matte proof Lincoln cents I recently had auctioned sold for the following percentages of Greysheet bid: 1909, 541% of Bid; 1910, 387% of Bid; 1913, 464% of Bid; 1915, 719% of Bid, and 1916 (in an ANACS holder), 859% of Bid. Any dealer who purchased any of these coins for resale would have been asking for an higher percentage of Bid.

Bid is a published price estimate. Coin Values, Numi News Coin Market, the Red Book, and the PCGS Price Guide also have published price estimates. These estimates could be too low, too high, or just right. My point is: some coins are worth well over Bid, so why should a dealer price them at Bid?

CoinJunkie · March 31, 2009 11:45AM

<< Bid is a published price estimate. Coin Values, Numi News Coin Market, the Red Book, and the PCGS Price Guide also have published price estimates. These estimates could be too low, too high, or just right. My point is: some coins are worth well over Bid, so why should a dealer price them at Bid? >>

The issue here is not how dealers price coins relative to sheet, it's how they price coins relative
to other dealers with material of similar quality.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 31, 2009 11:56AM

<< The issue here is not how dealers price coins relative to sheet, it's how they price coins relative to other dealers with material of similar quality. >>

Actually, none of us have any idea what the issue is here since the OP has only made a few vague comments on the topic.

For all we know, the 2 dealers he is describing had great stuff priced too low for what it was. Or crap priced way too high.

Walkerguy21D · March 31, 2009 12:05PM

At a large show like that, with many dealers to see, it usually only takes a few minutes to discern a dealer's 'system'. Does he consistently overgrade raw coins? Does he have a lot of problem coins? Are his coins over priced relative to MY perceived value? Can he be bargained with?
He can grade them, price them, etc. however he wants, they're his, but I don't have to waste my time looking through his inventory, and move on. And consequently, I seem to do most of my biz with predominantly the same guys year after year.

stman · March 31, 2009 12:07PM

Come on guys, even a decent prostitute has got to make a living. Quit picking on them poor dealers.

doh · March 31, 2009 12:20PM

Those are the guys to sell to

rhedden · March 31, 2009 12:22PM

These dealers often specialize in coins that are infrequently, if ever, offered for sale. Think of extremely rare colonials, R7+ patterns, ultra-rare CW tokens and storecards, unique die marriages/die states in Bust series, pop-top deep cameo proofs, and one-of-a-kind monster toners or DMPLs, for example. The seller of such an incredibly rare item can ask any price he wants, and he will eventually get it. If the coin subsequently sells for 3X "price guide," then it is the price guide that is wrong, not the dealer! (How can the price guide be right, if there is only one example of a coin known, and it just sold for 3X the listed price? The value of a unique coin is established by the last known sale price). On the other hand, if the dealer really is asking too much, the coin will simply not sell until the market catches up with the asking price. Due to the fact that this dealer has a very, very hard time replenishing inventory, he must make a large profit margin when selling an item. This is a very interesting economic niche in the coin industry, and I do know of a few people who fit this model. Most of them are reputable and friendly, too.

Bochiman · March 31, 2009 12:32PM

I had a nice chat, at Portland ANA, with Dennis. Doesn't mean I don't think he prices his coins very high.
His comment, while I was there, to another dealer, was: "I haven't even sold enough to pay for gas home once I get off the plane".
I liked a number of his coins and would have been a "serious" buyer for a couple, but not at even 50% of his ask ... on the coins I was interested in.
Sure, there were a few "affordable" but I don't think they were worth the price. I'm sure a few folks on here could/would afford his toners but they weren't even just "multiples" of sheet...they were above that...and, I have paid for toning before and am saying that.

That said, he is a really nice and helpful guy. Nothing against him but I would still say he is likely to be one considered to be very high priced at a show.
There is another, well-known, dealer who had quite high prices. I am sure he would negotiate somewhat for "serious" buyers, or folks he knows, but if you saw his coins priced as they were in Portland, I am sure most would say he was very high priced as well.
He's another dealer who is nice and good to talk to. However, the price on the coins makes it something to keep in mind and not go back to. Sure, may miss a nice coin by not going back, but may also save a lot of time and use that time to find a different nice coin at a different table.

RYK · March 31, 2009 12:44PM

I think Dennis was caught with a large inventory of toned Morgans when the toned Morgan market went south. (Heck, dizzyfox won't even look at a toned Morgan anymore.

) Now, he's stuck with a large inventory of coins for which there is little demand at his price point. Just my observation.

streeter · March 31, 2009 1:01PM

ArizJack said,
Was one of them a longtime Northern California dealer and a big whole page advertiser in CW and NN for 40+ years? I cannot understand how that fellow can sell ANY coins

That particular dealer has an excellent reputation Mr. Jack and has sold ONE HECK of a lot of coins to ONE HECK of a lot of people.
No complaints from people I know the last several decades.

respecfully years

Barndog · March 31, 2009 1:04PM

I've purchased a number of coins from Jack Beymer. He's also a strong buyer, no BS.

MrEureka · March 31, 2009 1:05PM

2 dealers there who seem to have one passion... To price most or all of their coins at what I see to be outrageous levels. Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices?

You haven't told us anything about their practices. All we've heard about is your opinion.

CoinJunkie · March 31, 2009 4:21PM

<< 

<< The issue here is not how dealers price coins relative to sheet, it's how they price coins relative to other dealers with material of similar quality. >>

Actually, none of us have any idea what the issue is here since the OP has only made a few vague comments on the topic.

For all we know, the 2 dealers he is describing had great stuff priced too low for what it was. Or crap priced way too high. >>

I was more or less commenting based on the title of the thread rather than the two dealers
referenced by the OP. Some dealers have a reputation for "optimistic" pricing. I don't have
any problem with that. I believe in the principle of a free market. Dealers are free to ask whatever
they want for their coins. And I'm free to walk away.

coynclecter · March 31, 2009 5:17PM

<< Just getting back from Baltimore I was reminded of 2 dealers there who seem to have one passion... To price most or all of their coins at what I see to be outrageous levels. Who here can give me a good explanation for thier practices? >>

They can make more profit fleecing one fool that they can making a reasonable profit off ten. These are the same guys who sit in thier coin shops all day dreaming about the senile old lady coming in with her deceased husbands collection.

PerryHall · March 31, 2009 7:04PM

<< A lot of businesses have discovered that making a profit on sales of their product puts more bread on the table than giving each person who walks by their choice of a coin at no cost. I know, it's crazy. >>

Doesn't a dealer have to actually sell a coin before he makes a profit? How does overcharging for a coin make it easier to sell that coin?

PerryHall · March 31, 2009 7:11PM

<< Those are the guys to sell to

>>

Just because they overcharge for their coins when selling doesn't necessarily mean they overpay when buying.

nicetoning42107 · April 1, 2009 1:00AM

<< 

<< Those are the guys to sell to

>>

Just because they overcharge for their coins when selling doesn't necessarily mean they overpay when buying. >>

Exactly. Usually the dealer with the highest priced coins pay the lowest prices when buying.

<< Doesn't a dealer have to actually sell a coin before he makes a profit? How does overcharging for a coin make it easier to sell that coin? >>

Because making $100 profit off one coin is easier than making $10 profit off 10 coins. The right buyer will eventually come along to pay strong money.

BigE2 · April 1, 2009 1:08AM

<< 

<< HH, did you discuss this with those individual dealers by any chance ? Was there any discussion on any particular coins ? I'm innocently curious. >>

Asking a coin dealer why his coins are overpriced is like asking a mother why her baby is so ugly. >>

LOL

collegecoincollector · April 1, 2009 1:11AM

I know for sure that some of them do it because they have the best selection to choose from. When you've been searching for something for a very long time and a dealer has three of them, you know that's sayin' somethin'

YaHa · April 1, 2009 1:32AM

<< I had a nice chat, at Portland ANA, with Dennis. Doesn't mean I don't think he prices his coins very high.
His comment, while I was there, to another dealer, was: "I haven't even sold enough to pay for gas home once I get off the plane".
I liked a number of his coins and would have been a "serious" buyer for a couple, but not at even 50% of his ask ... on the coins I was interested in.
Sure, there were a few "affordable" but I don't think they were worth the price. I'm sure a few folks on here could/would afford his toners but they weren't even just "multiples" of sheet...they were above that...and, I have paid for toning before and am saying that.

That said, he is a really nice and helpful guy. Nothing against him but I would still say he is likely to be one considered to be very high priced at a show.
There is another, well-known, dealer who had quite high prices. I am sure he would negotiate somewhat for "serious" buyers, or folks he knows, but if you saw his coins priced as they were in Portland, I am sure most would say he was very high priced as well.
He's another dealer who is nice and good to talk to. However, the price on the coins makes it something to keep in mind and not go back to. Sure, may miss a nice coin by not going back, but may also save a lot of time and use that time to find a different nice coin at a different table. >>

Understanding the Dealer who prices his coins for high amounts.

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