here is one you don't see everyday, and it looks like the collectors are turning out to bid it up already. anyone have a guess as to how high this will go?
well, I know nothing of these coins, but given that it is at $7100 US with about 6 days to go...I'm going to guess $10,000.00 US. What do I get if I'm right?
<< <i>It's easy to see how much this seller amped up the color with post editing of the image. This isn't the first time this guy has used this technique. >>
what is the giveaway sign that the color has been edited?
look at the shadows on the obverse holder...you don't get pixillated colors like that out of a grey shadow. I've taken pics of much smaller material without 'noise' being introduced...this happens because the color has been juiced to make it appear more desirable. You can see the closer reality in the smaller obverse picture...hardly any color at all.
<< <i>look at the shadows on the obverse holder...you don't get pixillated colors like that out of a grey shadow. I've taken pics of much smaller material without 'noise' being introduced...this happens because the color has been juiced to make it appear more desirable. You can see the closer reality in the smaller obverse picture...hardly any color at all. >>
I agree - I toned down the color saturation on the obv. pic and buy the time the rainbow toned shadow approached a normal gray so did the coin! Good catch.
He shows the coin in the best lighting for sure, but the one coin I have purchased from him was very nice. You had to rotate it in the light to really see the colors as he imaged it but they were there.
Yeah, there are a couple of regular sellers on the main BST that, shall we say, "overassist" the natural color of coins in their shots. One of them, who shall remain nameless (not this seller), boosts the contrast and saturation so extremely, to the point of absolutely destroying the appearance of the coins... but apparently there are enough people who are blind to the telltale signs of boosted saturation and contrast, that just have to have the color. The fact that the coins even sell at all are a travesty.
There is a forum and photo gallery out there devoted to rainbow-toned U.S. coins, primarily high-cost Morgan Dollars, where the vast majority of photos displayed are absolutely garish, and I don't mean the natural color of the coins. The membership there sits around and oohs and ahhs over pictures that make me want to barf. They're too busy patting one another on the back over the purchase of $1,000 MS63 coins (that otherwise would sell for $50-100) to realize just how much of a disservice they are doing to their own coins. We're talking egregious artificial manipulation. *shudder*
One seller here on the BST, who I now avoid religiously, "got me" on a bunch of lightside material. 4 of the 5 coins I bought from him were nowhere near as vibrant as the pictures suggested. He allowed me a return, albeit with some grumbling.
The artifacts that are created leap off the pictures once you know what to look for. I think it's a case of not being able to capture the color the way they see it, and overcompensating in an attempt to "get there", but it simply exacerbates the problem.
If I can't get color the way I see the coin in hand, I send the coins off to Mark Goodman, or if the coin is for resale and I need to pay closer attention to the cost, I send to Brandon (poorguy). Brandon did a great job on my Canadian toners. I have no problem at all admitting that there's a lot about coin photography I simply cannot accomplish myself.
Take the coin below for example. Very vibrant color, but you don't see the "graininess" that results from artificially boosting the saturation or contrast. I did some tweaking in Photoshop as far as shadow removal, but no altering of the color balance or saturation was done.
Now compare with the coin below from the original link. See the graininess surrounding the coin? See that the shadow areas are composed of bright red/blue/green rather than greys, browns, and blacks? Also, something is "off" with respect to the surfaces and details.
This graininess can also result from low-light conditions and the angled glass technique, and the resulting contrast boost that is necessary to "bring the coin back".
While not always a sign of deception, it should raise red flags that the coin requires higher scrutiny.
I think you guys need to see this and decide your future with this seller.
First of all, I don't know the guy so there is no personal crusade against him but his practices need to be brought to this forums attention.
A little (non-member) birdie sent me the following images to highlight what happened between the start of this thread and the close of auction. If you recall, or scroll up to my second comment, I mentioned the attributes of a juiced/amped image as little colored pixels in the shadows and I pointed to the shadow around the coin within the holder. It was the first picture below. Well our little lurking digital coin doctor picked up on this thread and actually went in and edited the image to take the color out of the mentioned shadow...actually, it looks like those pixels were all converted to greyscale and you can view this in the second picture. But it's not surprising that the color of the coin hasn't changed...................that my friends is DIGITAL DOCTORING.
Now why would he do this before close of auction? What is he afraid of? Is he covering up his doctoring?
You guys decide for yourselves but if I were in the market for toned coins I sure as Hell wouldn't be turning to this guy to supply me...he has shown his 'true colors' and he's busted.
You'll note that CP's linked image has changed too...it's housed on greattonings server...I predict that image and the one on the auction that was ended will be red X's before mid-morning. He got $8K for a $6K coin...it's certainly lucrative to hose collectors, ain't it?
Good catch. Definitely updated. Though that's a pretty blatant job and hamfisted cover up, if that's what it's supposed to be. Even if not, it's not nice to switch, or "tweak", pics mid auction.
Here's the file info for each (omitting camera settings), showing that this one was indeed updated: Auction start time was Mar-29-09 18:44:00 PDT
First image (the one in question): File change date and time: 2009:04:04 20:54:38 Image description: Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON Image input equipment model: E995 Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Next image: File change date and time: 2009:03:28 12:05:58 Image description: Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON Image input equipment model: E995 Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Excellent catch, Cacheman and Coinpictures!! Definitely DPOTD material.
The seller in question has announced on this board a number of times that he takes no responsibility for any alleged doctoring of his coins; that is, he is a consigner and simply is doing his friends a service by marketing the coins. Well, that now begs the question, is he not responsible for his digital doctoring either?
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Excellent detectives! And excellent helpful posts as well!
Kudos and bravo!
However.... Here is the same coin with two different lighting setups, and neither photograph is juiced, though it is a proof coin.
But if I were to sell it, (which I won't until I get it certified), I would include both images and explain the first is closer to what the coin appears like in hand, though the colors in the second image are truly there when light is reflected at the optimum angle.
Seems that seller is pretty open about his practices, see this Lightside thread. I suppose his logic is acceptable in a certain way, but that kind of morality seems little different than what has caused our financial sector so much trouble recently - just my opinion...
Anyhow, yeah, a lot can be done with Photoshop. I'm neurotic about making the pics I use for sales as accurate as possible. But here's a case where I fudged things - my icon. The coin has a planchet flaw, corrosion, I don't know - otherwise it's great coin and it's one that will never be for sale before it comes time to divy up my estate. But for the icon I decided to edit out the distraction. The clone stamp tool and smudge does the heavy lifting. Here's the original pic, compare to my current icon:
And taking it beyond coins, here's an old family photo I touched up (my great-grandfather):
Notice I was able to not only remove the creases, but also fill in the torn corner. And I'm an amateur with Photoshop!
All of this is to demonstrate that it's not just color that can be tweaked. While this isn't something we have to worry about too often, it does happen enough that we need to educate ourselves about it. Just as we take the time to learn how to spot counterfeits, we have to learn how to spot enhanced images or how to interpret different lighting if we're going to conduct transactions based on only what we see online.
But spoon, if you were to try and sell the photograph above, would you not reveal the true condition of the picture?
We're not talking about minor tweaking, or what someone does to display material from their personal collection. The issue is a seller's tactics to falsely enhance color in order to garner bids. Also, it's not a subtle removal of shadows, or a slight unsharp mask being applied. The example(s) this thread is about are pretty egregious. The saturation is being boosted to the moon.
Comments
FOR SALE Items
I have a PF63 piece for sale.
Zar's Ebay
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
<< <i>It's easy to see how much this seller amped up the color with post editing of the image. This isn't the first time this guy has used this technique. >>
what is the giveaway sign that the color has been edited?
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
<< <i>look at the shadows on the obverse holder...you don't get pixillated colors like that out of a grey shadow. I've taken pics of much smaller material without 'noise' being introduced...this happens because the color has been juiced to make it appear more desirable. You can see the closer reality in the smaller obverse picture...hardly any color at all. >>
I agree - I toned down the color saturation on the obv. pic and buy the time the rainbow toned shadow approached a normal gray so did the coin!
Good catch.
The Fireman...
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
natural color of coins in their shots. One of them, who shall remain nameless (not this seller), boosts
the contrast and saturation so extremely, to the point of absolutely destroying the appearance
of the coins... but apparently there are enough people who are blind to the telltale signs of boosted
saturation and contrast, that just have to have the color. The fact that the coins even sell at all are
a travesty.
There is a forum and photo gallery out there devoted to rainbow-toned U.S. coins, primarily high-cost
Morgan Dollars, where the vast majority of photos displayed are absolutely garish, and I don't mean
the natural color of the coins. The membership there sits around and oohs and ahhs over pictures that
make me want to barf. They're too busy patting one another on the back over the purchase of $1,000
MS63 coins (that otherwise would sell for $50-100) to realize just how much of a disservice they are
doing to their own coins. We're talking egregious artificial manipulation. *shudder*
One seller here on the BST, who I now avoid religiously, "got me" on a bunch of lightside material.
4 of the 5 coins I bought from him were nowhere near as vibrant as the pictures suggested. He allowed
me a return, albeit with some grumbling.
The artifacts that are created leap off the pictures once you know what to look for. I think it's a case
of not being able to capture the color the way they see it, and overcompensating in an attempt to
"get there", but it simply exacerbates the problem.
If I can't get color the way I see the coin in hand, I send the coins off to Mark Goodman, or if the
coin is for resale and I need to pay closer attention to the cost, I send to Brandon (poorguy).
Brandon did a great job on my Canadian toners. I have no problem at all admitting that there's
a lot about coin photography I simply cannot accomplish myself.
Take the coin below for example. Very vibrant color, but you don't see the "graininess" that results
from artificially boosting the saturation or contrast. I did some tweaking in Photoshop as far as
shadow removal, but no altering of the color balance or saturation was done.
Now compare with the coin below from the original link. See the graininess surrounding the coin?
See that the shadow areas are composed of bright red/blue/green rather than greys, browns,
and blacks? Also, something is "off" with respect to the surfaces and details.
This graininess can also result from low-light conditions and the angled glass technique, and
the resulting contrast boost that is necessary to "bring the coin back".
While not always a sign of deception, it should raise red flags that the coin requires
higher scrutiny.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>DPOTD material from CP and cacheman.
I'll second that motion!
First of all, I don't know the guy so there is no personal crusade against him but his practices need to be brought to this forums attention.
A little (non-member) birdie sent me the following images to highlight what happened between the start of this thread and the close of auction. If you recall, or scroll up to my second comment, I mentioned the attributes of a juiced/amped image as little colored pixels in the shadows and I pointed to the shadow around the coin within the holder. It was the first picture below. Well our little lurking digital coin doctor picked up on this thread and actually went in and edited the image to take the color out of the mentioned shadow...actually, it looks like those pixels were all converted to greyscale and you can view this in the second picture. But it's not surprising that the color of the coin hasn't changed...................that my friends is DIGITAL DOCTORING.
Now why would he do this before close of auction? What is he afraid of? Is he covering up his doctoring?
You guys decide for yourselves but if I were in the market for toned coins I sure as Hell wouldn't be turning to this guy to supply me...he has shown his 'true colors' and he's busted.
You'll note that CP's linked image has changed too...it's housed on greattonings server...I predict that image and the one on the auction that was ended will be red X's before mid-morning. He got $8K for a $6K coin...it's certainly lucrative to hose collectors, ain't it?
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
Here's the file info for each (omitting camera settings), showing that this one was indeed updated:
Auction start time was Mar-29-09 18:44:00 PDT
First image (the one in question):
File change date and time: 2009:04:04 20:54:38
Image description:
Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON
Image input equipment model: E995
Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Next image:
File change date and time: 2009:03:28 12:05:58
Image description:
Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON
Image input equipment model: E995
Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
3rd image:
File change date and time: 2009:03:29 14:37:39
Image description:
Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON
Image input equipment model: E995
Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
and 4th:
File change date and time: 2009:03:28 11:49:15
Image description:
Image input equipment manufacturer: NIKON
Image input equipment model: E995
Software used: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
My wantlist & references
The seller in question has announced on this board a number of times that he takes no responsibility for any alleged doctoring of his coins; that is, he is a consigner and simply is doing his friends a service by marketing the coins. Well, that now begs the question, is he not responsible for his digital doctoring either?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
looks like he cranked the color saturation up high on this one too. i'll bet it is nowhere near this 'neon' blue in hand as it appears.
click!
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Excellent detectives! And excellent helpful posts as well!
Kudos and bravo!
However.... Here is the same coin with two different lighting setups, and neither photograph is juiced, though it is a proof coin.
But if I were to sell it, (which I won't until I get it certified), I would include both images and explain the first is closer to what the coin appears like in hand, though the colors in the second image are truly there when light is reflected at the optimum angle.
Anyhow, yeah, a lot can be done with Photoshop. I'm neurotic about making the pics I use for sales as accurate as possible. But here's a case where I fudged things - my icon. The coin has a planchet flaw, corrosion, I don't know - otherwise it's great coin and it's one that will never be for sale before it comes time to divy up my estate. But for the icon I decided to edit out the distraction. The clone stamp tool and smudge does the heavy lifting. Here's the original pic, compare to my current icon:
And taking it beyond coins, here's an old family photo I touched up (my great-grandfather):
Notice I was able to not only remove the creases, but also fill in the torn corner. And I'm an amateur with Photoshop!
All of this is to demonstrate that it's not just color that can be tweaked. While this isn't something we have to worry about too often, it does happen enough that we need to educate ourselves about it. Just as we take the time to learn how to spot counterfeits, we have to learn how to spot enhanced images or how to interpret different lighting if we're going to conduct transactions based on only what we see online.
My wantlist & references
We're not talking about minor tweaking, or what someone does to display material from their personal collection. The issue is a seller's tactics to falsely enhance color in order to garner bids. Also, it's not a subtle removal of shadows, or a slight unsharp mask being applied. The example(s) this thread is about are pretty egregious. The saturation is being boosted to the moon.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps