How Would You Grade This Coin? 1792 French Ecu

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 30, 2009 7:36AM

I recently got this piece in hand.

By purely technical standards, the coin is magnificent. Most of what appear as contact marks in the pictures are really just die defects. A purely technical grade for this piece is probably MS67 (BTW, the pictures make the coin appear lower in grade than it actually is).

However, the eye appeal is generally lacking. The strike is a little soft, and not all of the planchet granularity was struck out, leaving the luster somewhat hazy in the central portions of the piece. Worst of all, there are major planchet adjustment marks on the reverse (mint made).

It will soon be sent to PCGS. What do you think they'll grade it?

Be brutal if you like! I can take it.

farthing · March 30, 2009 7:50AM

I would not be surprised if PCGS put it in a Genuine slab.

With those adjustment marks I would probably call it a 63.

MrEureka · March 30, 2009 8:38AM

I'd expect a 64.

spoon · March 30, 2009 8:48AM

I like it! adjustment marks and all!

I don't know how TPGs handle such things, but I should hope it can score at least 64, some of the other defects (like below the date) may hold it back from anything higher. Regardless, if I were looking for one of these I'd be willing to pay well for that example.

ormandh · March 30, 2009 9:12AM

It is a very nice piece! How common is it to find this series with so little wear? Did these circulate here in the States during that period? -Dan

STONE · March 30, 2009 10:48AM

Will, I don't know how to grade these, but I'd say 63/64 area.
It almost looks like there's wear on the obverse, but that could just be the weak striking.

MrEureka · March 30, 2009 10:50AM

How common is it to find this series with so little wear?

It's a hoard coin. Most of the coins from the hoard are choice frosty uncs with strike and planchet "issues", like the coin in the OP.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 30, 2009 11:00AM

<< How common is it to find this series with so little wear?

It's a hoard coin. Most of the coins from the hoard are choice frosty uncs with strike and planchet "issues", like the coin in the OP. >>

Any more info on this hoard? Sounds interesting.

lordmarcovan · March 30, 2009 11:39AM

My first ecu had some heavy adjustment marks to it. (Not that heavy, but then again, it was nowhere near that nice a grade, either).

I have no idea how it will grade, but I would not be surprised to see 63 on it. The obverse is quite handsome.

ASUtodd · March 30, 2009 11:42AM

Ok, so explain what "adjustment" marks are.....

Edited:

Finally found somewhere that explained it. Basically the mints would "scratch" or grind off pieces of the coin to make it weigh an exact weight...

ormandh · March 30, 2009 11:46AM

It basically is when the planchet which was struck as a coin and was heavier than the coin should have weighed. They would then scratch off any extra silver to make the weight correct. -Dan

ASUtodd · March 30, 2009 11:47AM

Therefore, "adjustment marks" would TECHNICALLY be after minting marks..... The coin was minted, weighed to much, so someone took an awl to it and scratched it up... Doesn't sound "mint state" to me...

ormandh · March 30, 2009 11:49AM

LOL! You are some 'Dick Tracy"! You beat me to the punch. How much are they payin' ya!!

ormandh · March 30, 2009 11:51AM

It is pretty common for that era, but you are correct on the fact that there are probably better examples of the coin out there.

ASUtodd · March 30, 2009 11:52AM

Har... not much but you know what????? In this crappy economy I have ton of job security!! When I read what "adjustment marks" were I was like... "WHAT THE?!?!?" That just seems a harsh way to get your coinage right and a heck of a way to make a counterfeiters day!

ajaan · March 30, 2009 12:05PM

MS63

ormandh · March 30, 2009 12:15PM

<< Har... not much but you know what????? In this crappy economy I have ton of job security!! When I read what "adjustment marks" were I was like... "WHAT THE?!?!?" That just seems a harsh way to get your coinage right and a heck of a way to make a counterfeiters day! >>

I actually meant my comment in a good way. Your detective skills are a plus for these forums! -Dan

ormandh · March 30, 2009 12:26PM

Without knowing the series, I would have to give it a 63. If there are better examples, then a 61would be appropriate considering the adjustment marks. The only problem that I have with the coin is the possible rub on the highpoints of the obverse as photographed. If there is no rub on the high points then I would bump it up.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 30, 2009 12:28PM

<< Therefore, "adjustment marks" would TECHNICALLY be after minting marks..... The coin was minted, weighed to much, so someone took an awl to it and scratched it up... Doesn't sound "mint state" to me... >>

No, the planchets were adjusted before striking.

MrEureka · March 30, 2009 12:42PM

Any more info on this hoard?

Sorry, I don't know the details. I'd guess I've seen a couple dozen of the coins, though.

ASUtodd · March 30, 2009 12:53PM

<< 

<< Therefore, "adjustment marks" would TECHNICALLY be after minting marks..... The coin was minted, weighed to much, so someone took an awl to it and scratched it up... Doesn't sound "mint state" to me... >>

No, the planchets were adjusted before striking. >>

Looking at that coin it looks like it was done after the striking....

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 30, 2009 1:03PM

<< 

<< 

<< Therefore, "adjustment marks" would TECHNICALLY be after minting marks..... The coin was minted, weighed to much, so someone took an awl to it and scratched it up... Doesn't sound "mint state" to me... >>

No, the planchets were adjusted before striking. >>

Looking at that coin it looks like it was done after the striking.... >>

I can assure you it wasn't.

coinkat · March 30, 2009 8:42PM

First, I like it and would grade it either 63 but morelikely a 64.

This coin begs a sad question- are the adjustment marks severe and localized to the point that it may not grade?

I think it should grade, but there is a small chance it may not.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 30, 2009 9:05PM

<< First, I like it and would grade it either 63 but morelikely a 64.

This coin begs a sad question- are the adjustment marks severe and localized to the point that it may not grade?

I think it should grade, but there is a small chance it may not. >>

It's possible, but I currently own an NGC MS64 1789 Ecu that has equally intense adjustment marks, so I'm under the impression TPGs still certify them.

ajaan · March 30, 2009 9:25PM

I had PCGS BB a 17th C. British coin for haymarking. I think they would 'Genuine' this coin.

docday2003 · March 31, 2009 12:15AM

I'm confused. The adjustment marks of which you speak are the long grooves on the reverse of the coin, correct? If these were made to the planchet, wouldn't they be removed by striking the coin? From the look of it, after the coin was struck, someone scratched up the reverse. Anyhow, I'm obviously not an expert...but it doesn't make sense to me.

ASUtodd · March 31, 2009 12:18AM

Thats what I was thinking also. In looking at the coin some places that the marks would have been removed from striking are still there..
(EDAT) : I'm not slamming the coin, I am just curious as to how to tell when it is post mint or pre mint marks. How was the coin struck? Hammered? Rolled? I have no idea... I am hoping someone can fill my knowledge gaps in here.

mrpotatoheadd · March 31, 2009 12:53AM

Here's an interesting article offering an alternate theory for the origin of adjustment marks on Mexican republic coinage:

Adjustment Marks
What Are they?

ASUtodd · March 31, 2009 1:04AM

GREAT READING!!!!

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 31, 2009 6:12AM

<< Thats what I was thinking also. In looking at the coin some places that the marks would have been removed from striking are still there..
(EDAT) : I'm not slamming the coin, I am just curious as to how to tell when it is post mint or pre mint marks. How was the coin struck? Hammered? Rolled? I have no idea... I am hoping someone can fill my knowledge gaps in here. >>

Struck with a screw press.

The planchet adjustments were too deep to be entirely removed by striking.

ASUtodd · March 31, 2009 7:19AM

Well, maybe it's because I haven't seen this up close and personal.... this is the first time I've ever heard of "adjustment" marks... I have seen coins that have been struck through objects before and they didn't look like this. Again, I haven't seen "adjustment" marks before so this is new..... I will say that you have a beautiful coin...on the obverse

OchoReales · March 31, 2009 7:31AM

Not knowing how common adjustment marks are on these particular pieces, I'll throw a guess in at 62 unless the adjustment marks are commonplace. In that case, I'm in for 63.

Gary

OchoReales · March 31, 2009 7:36AM

<< Therefore, "adjustment marks" would TECHNICALLY be after minting marks..... The coin was minted, weighed to much, so someone took an awl to it and scratched it up... Doesn't sound "mint state" to me... >>

Adjustment marks do not preclude Flowing hair coinage from grading so I can't see how that would hold this coin back. The adjusting was done at the mint with a file or rasp and the services don't see this as damage.

Gary

coinkat · March 31, 2009 7:56AM

Unfortunately, there is no lock that this coin will grade... I think it should, especially if we consider the history and technology that went into the production of this coin

How Would You Grade This Coin? 1792 French Ecu

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