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Short report from China
JCMhouston
Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
I arrived in Shanghai today after 5 days in Beijing and wanted to give a short report on the coin business here. I got a chance to go to two government coin and currency museums, visited some "reputable" coin dealers, and went to the antique market in Beijing to see some not so reputable dealers. Whats hot - the visit to the Forbidden City is well worthwhile, a private tour guide was 100 RMB (about $12) for the 3 hours we spent inside the walls. Whats not - dinner Wednesday at a very high end restuarant, the steamed fish heads were sort of ok, but the fried jellyfish heads and chicken feet I can do without.
The coin museums are worth a visit, the Tower museum is very small, just a couple of rooms maybe 20x60' but with decent displays of ancient coins. In the second room they also have a very nice display board on how to tell "false from genuine" ancients. SInce the ancients were originally cast, as are the copies, it dealt mostly with how they apply false patinas and coloring to simulate antique. An interesting discussion was had with the young university tour guide volunteer about the false coins. She explained that they did try to stop it at one time but the number of counterifeters of antique coins was so large they could not possibly arrest them all. So as long as they do not try comtemporary Chinese currency they leave them pretty much alone. Outside of the Tower museum their is one very large dealer (for China) with mainly antique coins including spade and knife money, and quite a collection of currency for sale. The vast majority of currency is from the post 1949 period, a few pieces form the Japanese occupation, very little republic, and almost none from the emporers period. The dealer spent some time talking with me, well with my people actually, and said that when Republic and Emporer currency does come up it is very expensive. This particuar dealer had certificates from the China National Bank Museum curator stating the were genuine, and most of his stuff was priced as such. There were a couple of smaller dealers outside in the alley, which by the way is part of the museum grounds. Quality and selection was ot so good but I picked up a few decent looking pieces for around $1 each just to have.
The China National Bank Museum near Tienemen Square is a must see. The ground flor has a very nice display set up to show coin casting technology used from c 200 BC to the early 20th C. Soem fascinating technology for casting multiple coins before the advent of sand casting. I tried to take some photos but cannot upload them until I get back next week. The next flor up has a really fine display of ancients, including Sassanian empire which was apparantly accepted in Eastern China during te period. Some of the absolute finest kinfe and spade money specimens I have ever seen and a vey good writeup for each of the cases.
Then saturday afternoon to the antique market. I got to hold the very rare Indian Head Silver Dollar with Chain cent reverse, these are incredibly rare in America but fairly common here. They are getting pretty good with Morgans though, the 82CC and 92CC were actually of pretty good quality. The main telltales continue to be the numerals in the date and the mintmarks. But they are good enough to fool a casual buyer. Of more concern were the Spanish 8 reales and British Trade Dollars. I don't collect the Spanish and to be honest I could not tell these from the few real ones I have handled, they seem pretty darn good to me. I do have a few trade dollars, they actually do a pretty good job on the obverse, although the face on Britannia isn't quite right, but on the reverse they still do not have the proportions right on the design so it's reasonably obvious if you have seen a few real ones. All of these were in circulated grades by the way and they are doing a much better job on the patina and aging process.
I did not buy any of the fakes, all of the dealers wanted 80-100 RMB ($12-18) ea, even in quantity, and I didn't feel like spending $100 to get one of each. Next trip I will try to spend more time to see if I can get closer to the manufacturers and get better pricing.
I'm using a new hotel in Shanghai, I can highly recommend the Skyfortune Boutique Hotel. About $120 per night, and like a french baroque mansion, very "high end" as they say in China. And I played golf this morning at the Shanghai Open course, very nice indeed. I'll be back in Houston Wednesday, as soon as I get over my jet lag I'll ty to post some pics.
The coin museums are worth a visit, the Tower museum is very small, just a couple of rooms maybe 20x60' but with decent displays of ancient coins. In the second room they also have a very nice display board on how to tell "false from genuine" ancients. SInce the ancients were originally cast, as are the copies, it dealt mostly with how they apply false patinas and coloring to simulate antique. An interesting discussion was had with the young university tour guide volunteer about the false coins. She explained that they did try to stop it at one time but the number of counterifeters of antique coins was so large they could not possibly arrest them all. So as long as they do not try comtemporary Chinese currency they leave them pretty much alone. Outside of the Tower museum their is one very large dealer (for China) with mainly antique coins including spade and knife money, and quite a collection of currency for sale. The vast majority of currency is from the post 1949 period, a few pieces form the Japanese occupation, very little republic, and almost none from the emporers period. The dealer spent some time talking with me, well with my people actually, and said that when Republic and Emporer currency does come up it is very expensive. This particuar dealer had certificates from the China National Bank Museum curator stating the were genuine, and most of his stuff was priced as such. There were a couple of smaller dealers outside in the alley, which by the way is part of the museum grounds. Quality and selection was ot so good but I picked up a few decent looking pieces for around $1 each just to have.
The China National Bank Museum near Tienemen Square is a must see. The ground flor has a very nice display set up to show coin casting technology used from c 200 BC to the early 20th C. Soem fascinating technology for casting multiple coins before the advent of sand casting. I tried to take some photos but cannot upload them until I get back next week. The next flor up has a really fine display of ancients, including Sassanian empire which was apparantly accepted in Eastern China during te period. Some of the absolute finest kinfe and spade money specimens I have ever seen and a vey good writeup for each of the cases.
Then saturday afternoon to the antique market. I got to hold the very rare Indian Head Silver Dollar with Chain cent reverse, these are incredibly rare in America but fairly common here. They are getting pretty good with Morgans though, the 82CC and 92CC were actually of pretty good quality. The main telltales continue to be the numerals in the date and the mintmarks. But they are good enough to fool a casual buyer. Of more concern were the Spanish 8 reales and British Trade Dollars. I don't collect the Spanish and to be honest I could not tell these from the few real ones I have handled, they seem pretty darn good to me. I do have a few trade dollars, they actually do a pretty good job on the obverse, although the face on Britannia isn't quite right, but on the reverse they still do not have the proportions right on the design so it's reasonably obvious if you have seen a few real ones. All of these were in circulated grades by the way and they are doing a much better job on the patina and aging process.
I did not buy any of the fakes, all of the dealers wanted 80-100 RMB ($12-18) ea, even in quantity, and I didn't feel like spending $100 to get one of each. Next trip I will try to spend more time to see if I can get closer to the manufacturers and get better pricing.
I'm using a new hotel in Shanghai, I can highly recommend the Skyfortune Boutique Hotel. About $120 per night, and like a french baroque mansion, very "high end" as they say in China. And I played golf this morning at the Shanghai Open course, very nice indeed. I'll be back in Houston Wednesday, as soon as I get over my jet lag I'll ty to post some pics.
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Comments
Cathy
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I can also recommend you try the Portman Ritz Carlton in Shanghai!
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
Edit: I see you said currency, not coins. Never mind...
Sorry I mostly lurk and I haven't posted in a long time since I've been in Japan for over a year.
But this has me concerned, since I collect nothing but 8 Reales:
<< <i> Of more concern were the Spanish 8 reales and British Trade Dollars. I don't collect the Spanish and to be honest I could not tell these from the few real ones I have handled, they seem pretty darn good to me >>
1. How much were they selling for?
2. Do you have any pictures of these fakes?
Thanks
<< <i>First I would like to thank you for a great report from across the seas, I really enjoyed it and I hope to venture to China myself sometime in the near future.
Sorry I mostly lurk and I haven't posted in a long time since I've been in Japan for over a year.
But this has me concerned, since I collect nothing but 8 Reales:
<< <i> Of more concern were the Spanish 8 reales and British Trade Dollars. I don't collect the Spanish and to be honest I could not tell these from the few real ones I have handled, they seem pretty darn good to me >>
1. How much were they selling for?
2. Do you have any pictures of these fakes?
Thanks >>
Unfortuanely, the coin you collect is heavily counterfeited. There are TONS of fake 8 reales out there, most being cast in China. For a time, there were hoards of them on ebay, but they have cancelled many of these auctions.
the ones i've seen were all priced between 20-40, and many looked quite convincing with fake patina added and other things to try to fool folks.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
I enjoyed reading your OP!
"I got to hold the very rare Indian Head Silver Dollar with Chain cent reverse,..." Made me snort my break time Coca-Cola through my nose! Nicely worded.
Enjoy the trip!
<< <i>
I did not buy any of the fakes, all of the dealers wanted 80-100 RMB ($12-18) ea, even in quantity, and I didn't feel like spending $100 to get one of each. Next trip I will try to spend more time to see if I can get closer to the manufacturers and get better pricing.
>>
I noticed when I was there, but I was in Guangzhou and Nanchang, that I could find the fakes for about 40RMB, but I could never get them to come lower on the price. Curiously there was always more wiggle room on the newer and authentic Chinese stuff. I wondered that they believed a firmer price on the fake stuff especially for Westerners gave the stuff some air of authenticity.