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What investment coins to buy?
Ivars
Posts: 27
With the current economic situation, if one had cash to invest in US coins, what would be a good investment today? Please be specific so one can do due diligence.
NewToCOllecting
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Then, I'd have to ask you whether you intend to make money by investing in US coins. I'd ask you this because you will be competing with experts who've been doing this for 20-30 years, and without the prior knowledge of the coins and the market, you will be like a guppy in a shark tank.
Just an opinion.
Added: I'd hang around this forum for awhile. There are some dealers here who I would actually trust, but I'd sure get to know my way around before plunking down any kind of serious money on a coin investment.
GAT's suggestions (above) would be ok, but I suspect that the train has left the station on those coins for the time being. The time to have bought them was when they were being offered by the Mint. In the long term, they will be good, but in the short term much (in the coin market) depends on discretionary spending, and from what I'm hearing about the economy, discretionary spending is not likely to be expanding any time soon.
I knew it would happen.
Walkers in MS 65 and above
Barbers dimes in MS 66 and above
Liberty seated coinage in proof.
Stay clear of gold ... it's a hot commodity right now.
I have other ideas but do not wish to give them away at this time.
One of those sets is platinum, the other is gold. Both are desireable as collectibles. The $20 St Gaudens coins run the gamut from extremely high grade (expensive) to low grade (moderate premium). There are whole systems of arbitrage over which level of St. Gaudens offer the most advantageous niche in the market at a given point in time. Again, a specialist's game if you are looking to win.
I knew it would happen.
Such a tease!
I knew it would happen.
That said the short answer is 90% silver coins in bulk, as close to spot silver melt price as possible. It is easy to buy and sell, doesn't take much research, doesn't take any grading skill. Keep it simple and the odds improve. Make it complex (in terms of grading, grading companies, coin quality), and the odds of losing big are much larger.
Bye the way, the posts are appreciated.
<< <i>do not buy US coins right now. >>
Why? Premonition of a future demise???
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>I do not consider myself foolish. The reason being I did invest, with due diligence, in coinage in 2004/5 and have been out of the market since then. I was curious what the Forum thought about investing during this economic downturn with specific types to look into. My favorite coinage is the $5 Indian. Love that version. If the Forum members do reply with serious answers, others may benifit too. I have read the books noted, but that was in 2004
Bye the way, the posts are appreciated. >>
Here are my recommendations. In a strong market, buy the high quality key date coins. In a weak market, buy the decent generics.
the TV talking heads and supposed experts, I
think that the members of this Forum ,are more in tune
with economic and numismatic values. In my opinion,
we have among our numbers ,some of the brightest
and most successful men and women in the world of
business and coin collecting to be found anywhere.
Listen to the Forum, absorb the information and in time,
you will be able to make intelligent decisions. In this world
knowledge is king in all things. Unfortunately, stupidity has
seemed to have the upper hand for a very long time.
Camelot
<< <i>Investment is a bad reason to buy coins. You purchase them with an eye on enjoyment and profit as a second motive. If I was buying today, looking for increased value tomorrow, I would choose the 2008 W 4 coin Platinum Proof and 4 coin Buffalo sets. >>
i would agree to this BUT, if it were me just buy all the gold you can, i also would buy more of the older common dates double eagles.they have jumped in price over melt !!!!
just ask me if you need to buy some
<< <i> My favorite coinage is the $5 Indian. Love that version.. >>
The Fractional Gold Buffalos Set that came out last year. Hope you picked those up when they came out. I love those.
IMO, the silver whould probably have the best long term % increase,
but due to the bulkiness of it I dumped all mine a few months back
and went for the gold, I went Libs all denominations, and Saints,
dont care for moderns personally.......
1856 flyer (ms66)
1877 indian VF or better
1909svdb (ms67)
1914D Lincoln (ms66)
1922 no D Lincoln (ms65)
1931S Lincoln (ms65)
1937 D 3 legged Buffalo F or better
1916 D merc (ms63)
1918/7 S standing lib quarter
1921 D walking lib half
1878 CC morgan
1891 CC morgan
1893 S morgan
1928 Peace doll
1907 wire edge
That should keep you occupied for a bit.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
as to what generic gold is going for at current melt...............
1: They will NEVER go to zero like enron, lehman, bearsterns,etc
2. Metals have inherent value.
3. No matter where you go they will take what you have (depending on metal type)
4. argentina , russia style collapse see if your digital blips on a screen can be bartered for food! Coins can!
5. Hard assets are in your control, not to the whim of changing administrations.
I could go on.....
I also would like to hear others POSITIVE views.
Too much negativity on this board with coins/metals as an investment. Seems like elitist hobbyists.
My thoughts as coins/metals as investments
90%/40% bags
gold/silver/platinum wait for more correction
key dates/low mintage in pcgs holders bought from a reputable dealer (morgans, walkers,bust halves,etc)
Lets compare 100k worth of low mintage/key date coins with GE stock in the past 10 yrs. Also, which would you sleep better, time efficient, add to the economy & enjoy!?
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
<< <i>I do not consider myself foolish. The reason being I did invest, with due diligence, in coinage in 2004/5 and have been out of the market since then. I was curious what the Forum thought about investing during this economic downturn with specific types to look into. My favorite coinage is the $5 Indian. Love that version. If the Forum members do reply with serious answers, others may benifit too. I have read the books noted, but that was in 2004
Bye the way, the posts are appreciated. >>
If the $5 Indian is your favorite, invest some time in yourself by becoming an expert in the series. If, given a raw coin, you can tell the difference between a 58 and 62 reliably, that investment will have one heck of a payoff. In general, if there are series that are being beaten up right now because of the economy, they would seem to have the best shot at recovering when the economy does. Generic gold is not one of those series.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>With the current economic situation, if one had cash to invest in US coins, what would be a good investment today? Please be specific so one can do due diligence. >>
Keys to any series in the best condition possible. Period.
These weathered the meltdown of the coin market in the early 1960's.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
I am one of the elitist hobbyists who is negative on coins as investments. The best advice, the one that I have heard over and over again, is that those who truly love coins, study them, master them, will do well financially with coins, often in spite of themselves. Those who buy coins primarily for investment purposes do not, as a rule, do so well. Over the last seven years, I have seen this play out over and over again as collections come to market and are sold.
<< <i>Excellent Mike: Key dates are what I immagined this Forum would recommend >>
Key dates have been run up through the roof. They have also been the subject of hoarding.
Beware!
the beginning part seems to answer your question
"How and Why to Collect Series" 7 Articles
ARTICLE #1 FIRST YEAR ISSUES
Greetings!
People have collected coins throughout the ages. Why do people collect coins? The reasons will vary among collectors and the mix for each person is different. It can be for their artistic beauty, intrinsic metal value, numismatic study, historic reasons, or for many collectors today, it can be for investment reasons. Considering the value that rare coins possess in the 21st century the last reason is almost always part of the equation. Therefore one of the most often asked questions is how do I make money in Rare coins or will this specific coin make me money. The most important thing to remember is; you should not consider making money your first priority in coin collecting. Your first priority should be to appreciate the coins you are buying. Only by understanding which coins you should be buying, and why you are drawn to those coins will you reap the best returns. It is very important to really like coins and it is even better if you love them. If collecting coins is merely mechanical and not passionate I think, you are at a disadvantage in the game of coins. If you love coins, you will seek out superior individual examples and will understand why they are more desirable. These coins are not only described by their numerical grades, but by adjectives, like Brilliant, Gem, Original, Well struck, Clean fields, Problem Free, Wholesome and the most important of all Choice! As you study these coins, they will teach you the subtlety of how value is determined and why these coins are scarcer and will always be in demand.
This series, which we hope to run weekly, assuming I can keep on schedule, will touch on some of the ways you can collect coins and improve your focus. By knowing which coins you are seeking, you automatically narrow your research, and do a better job. Simultaneously, you can gain the appreciation you need to understand the object of your desire. Said simply, it is good to have a plan. The classical and most obvious way to collect coins is to find a series you like and get one of each coin minted. That's set building and we will get around to that. Our first topic is going to be, First year Issues. It is really pretty simple, these are the first coins minted in every denomination and this set will include some of the most classic and desirable coins most collectors will ever own. It is a great set, and I would love to help you assemble it. Please call me to assist you, 800-869-1869 or email Harry@hlrc.com
Early Federal Coinage Issues:
First up is my favorite little sister, the 1793 half cent. Despite a fair amount of these coins in the marketplace, finding a pleasing one is harder than you would think. Some of the varieties are poorly made and the planchets just don`t hold up all that well. A nice VF coin is 15-20k and a nice XF coin is 25-30k. Remember I said nice, less desirable coins can be bought for 30-40% less but you don`t want those. Large cents are next. In 1793, the very first year our mint produced any dated coins for general circulation, we had three designs for the large cent: the Chain, Wreath, and finally the Liberty Cap. These are three fascinating and mysterious issues. The first is the only coin in the U.S. catalog that has a chain as the central design on the reverse. Subsequently, the mint changed the design to a wreath and finally redesigned the whole coin with a new obverse and reverse with the main change, a more pleasant, less scary looking female form on the obverse, with a cap. The 1793 liberty cap is a very rare coin and the toughest of the three, expect to pay a lot for this coin and more than a lot if it is a nice example. An average VF coin probably fetches 50-60K today and if you could find a real XF, I doubt you can, 100-150k, is not out of the question. A VF Chain would probably be in the 35-40k range and not many on the market today, so you might have to step down a notch in wholesomeness for this coin. An XF could easily run 50k+ if its handsome. The wreath cents are collectible and available in XF and AU and run 20k and 30-35k respectively. A sub variety exists for both the chain and the wreath, and no, we are not talking die marriages per se, we will get to that in another installment. The Chain has an Ameri Variation, instead of spelling out the entire word America, which they did soon after complaints filled their email box at the mint. The wreath cent has a large letters and large date variety. Most of them have very small letters and a very small date, not a lot of room on that coin. It costs a bit more, but I really like the large date, large letters wreath, which is pictured above 1793 S-5, R-4 1C PCGS AU53 (click) and on my inventory list for $35000. A great coin to put-away until eventual Redbook recognition.
In 1794, the mint got really busy and produced Flowing Hair half dimes, Half Dollars, and Dollars. The half dimes are popular and the most affordable of all the early first year issues. I think nice VF coins are around 5000 and nice XF coins could go 7500 or so. The half dollars are also available, but in grades above VF30 they get pretty tough and above XF really tough. For a while these traded at about a 1000 dollars a point and nice VF`s are still worth this much and nice XF`s are really tough to find and trade closer to 1500 a point. Expect to pay north of 50k for an XF that is really XF and not banged up. The coin pictured to the left is a 1794 O-106, R.6 50C PCGS VF30 (click) and on my inventory list for $37500. This example is absolutely choice and a bit better die marriage. 1794 dollars are among the most valuable coins I have ever traded, and in any condition, they are magical. In any choice grade, they are actually mystical! Though far from the rarest, I feel this is the most important coin in the U.S. catalog. Most of these are a little banged up, but this is going to be the key to first year issues, including gold, which we will get to in a minute. I would love to help you find an example of this great coin! Call me to discuss 800-869-1869.
Dimes and Quarters didn`t come along until 1796, rounding out the silver offerings. These coins are available in high circ and mint state grades and when toned just right these are mighty beautiful coins. Their design and style is quite similar to each other, but different than the 1794 issues. If I could only collect nine coins, it would be these I have just discussed. In Nice XF these nine coins would roughly cost, assuming you could locate a 93 cap and 94 dollar that were suitable, approximately 625K. This set would be a dream.
The coin pictured to the right is a 1796 JR-1, R-3. 10C PCGS AU55 (click) and on my inventory list for $21500. It has beautiful original color!
OK, let's talk about Gold. With Gold virtually on fire these days the offering of first year issues from this group couldn't be better coins to own. There are four: The 2.5 liberty offers two distinct designs, one with stars and one without stars. These are generally found, when not damaged, in AU or better grades and run 125-200K, depending on how AU and how fresh they are. Uncirculated pieces have often been in the 250-500k range. Personally, a nice AU55 would float my boat. The larger offerings of the 5 and 10 are actually a bit more affordable. The 1795 issues are known as small eagles to differentiate themselves from the heraldic eagle designs that would come along a few years later. These coins most often appear in AU grades and better. 1795 $5's have recently been getting a bit cheaper and for 40 something, maybe low 50k range you should get a pretty decent AU coin. I imagine for 55 to 60k, you could buy a super 58, and once you get to Uncirculated these take a jump. A Small Eagle Ten is a breathtaking coin and one of my favorite designs. These too have softened recently and where a nice AU55+ or 58 used to cost 100k. I bet a meager 80-85k might do it and a lower end AU is probably available at 65-70k.......there you have it. If you collected first year AU gold coins to go with your first year XF copper and silver coins you could add another 475K. For a cool 1.1 million dollars, give or take, a lot of patience, and a bit of luck, you might be able to acquire these 13 first year federal coins, and be a numismatic superstar. The line forms to the left. Happy Collecting!
1793 1/2 Cent 1794 Half
1793 Chain sub variety (Ameri) 1794 Dollar
1793 Wreath sub variety( Large Date, Large Letter) 1796 2.5 Liberty without Stars
1793 Liberty Cap 1796 $2.5 Liberty with Stars
1794 Half Dime 1795 Small Eagle $5
1796 Dime 1795 Small Eagle $10
1796 Quarter
It is probably worth noting that this set would not be technically complete without several obsolete and other denominations that didn`t get their start until the 19th century. These would be:
1864 Two Cent sub variety (small motto) 1875 20 Cent Piece
1851 Three Cent Silver 1875-S 20 Cent Piece
1851-O Three Cent Silver 1850 Twenty Dollar Gold Piece
1865 3 Cent Nickel-----metal change 1850-O Twenty Dollar Gold Piece
1866 Shield Nickel, well it's not a half dime exactly
I hope you enjoyed the article!
Below is a small sample of our inventory (click on description for pic) - See over 200 more listings of Choice, Quality, Key Date, and Collector issues seldom offered on other lists at HLRC.com
Accepting that this is a question about investing, not collecting, and that you have already decided to invest some money in coins, the answer depends largely on you.
How well do you know coins?
What is your time horizon?
How is your tolerance for risk?
How important is liquidity? (You can have it, but it comes at a price.)
What are your assumptions about the future of the economy, inflation and the markets?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm not shure if small gold coins are the place to dabble.
Considering this is one of the highest faked coins, is 50% knowledge enough?
<< <i>Too much negativity on this board with coins/metals as an investment. Seems like elitist hobbyists.
I am one of the elitist hobbyists who is negative in coins as investments. The best advice, the one that I have heard over and over again, is that those who truly love coins, study them, master them, will do well financially with coins, often in spite of themselves. Those who buy coins primarily for investment purposes do not, as a rule, do so well. Over the last seven years, I have seen this play out over and over again as collections come to market and are sold. >>
There are those who do well financially in coins. They tend to have a love of the hobby, have a great natural eye for quality. They spend endless hours on improving their grading skills by looking at lots of coins. They know the market inside and out as to which coins are truly rare on the market, and which are common but have big price tags. They spend years developing relationships with dealers and other collectors to get better access at better prices.
The other much larger group is the group of "fools." They buy coins for investment. They know nothing about grading, and don't want to learn. They don't know the market for coins, sometimes buying from a single source, at prices more than double what other collectors are paying. In the extreme cases, they buy from telemarketers that run radio or print ads and are down 80% when they walk in the door.
Want to make money in coins? Learn how to grade, learn it well, best to hope that you have natural talent, because without that you will be two steps behind from the get go. Develop contacts with dealers and other collectors that sell, nurture them. Learn the market for the coins you are interested in. Learn it well, inside and out, as to which coins are common, which are truly hard to find, and the typical wholesale and retail prices they trade at. Do all that and you'll likely make money, or at least lose less than other collectors. Or you can press the "easy" button and ask on some Internet forum and follow some stranger's advice as to what series he/she likes and you'll likely lose money. Why? Because you can't grade that series, you don't know the market for that series, you don't have any dealer connections to get good coins at good prices. Three strikes and you are out.
Exactly.....that's why there is a PM's Forum now. Where a touch more sanity prevails. Gold is often a 4 letter word to the general numismatic community.
Investment is a bad reason to buy coins
It's an equally bad reason to buy stocks, bonds, currencies, real estate, etc only because others tell you that you should or because they "seem" to go up. There are no true investment vehicles today as clearly the stock, bond, currency markets are the play things of the hedge funds, major banks and the corporations themselves (wishfull financial reports, off balance sheet debts listed as assets, lying to the shareholders, big bonus payments for fictitious profts, etc.). Those are investments? Coins are in fact far less manipulated in price and they are in your own hands. Do your own research and then place your bets. I always believed the stock market was a con as it ran up through the 1990's, and it has come a long ways back. Coins by comparison seem to meet more of the historical requirements of what an investment is really supposed to be vs. paper assets. Post Enron Sarbannes-Oxley regulations? What a joke on all of us. It hurt the real producing companies and continued to let the real crooks ramp it up several notches.
As far as not investing in anything gold, including gold coins right now because it's "high" is not a fair analysis by any means. Gold will always be high to some, no matter how low or high it goes. Gold was high at $400, $475, $525, $575, $660, $730, $882, $900, and $1000. It will be "too high" many more times down the road as well as the Dow/gold ratio shrinks towards unity. What started it the higher 40's is now in the 7's. My best choices to buy I already bought a month or so ago and they were in the generic gold area.
Gold and silver are correcting right now and following that correction should be a safer time to enter in if you accept the risks. Just don't bet the farm on gold falling under $900 this time...it just might surprise and make another successful crack at the $1000 level. For long term holders silver is probably a pretty safe bet and one with limited downside. It is money after all and historically is higher than where it should be vs. gold. If you subscribe to the inflation adjusted values of PM's, then we are still at a small fraction of the 1980 prices today. If you think the value of the dollar is set to rise to new all time highs, inflation and the commodity sector are dead, then you should not be spending any money on PM's.
Considering the last several years of run up on key dates, REG set items, etc., there's some consolidation long overdue. On the flip side, $10-20 TRILLION in new spending has to end up somewhere and coins will eventually get some of it...but so will that loaf of bread and gallon of gasoline.
roadrunner
<< <i>
There are those who do well financially in coins. They tend to have a love of the hobby, have a great natural eye for quality. They spend endless hours on improving their grading skills by looking at lots of coins. They know the market inside and out as to which coins are truly rare on the market, and which are common but have big price tags. They spend years developing relationships with dealers and other collectors to get better access at better prices.
The other much larger group is the group of "fools." They buy coins for investment. They know nothing about grading, and don't want to learn. They don't know the market for coins, sometimes buying from a single source, at prices more than double what other collectors are paying. In the extreme cases, they buy from telemarketers that run radio or print ads and are down 80% when they walk in the door.
Want to make money in coins? Learn how to grade, learn it well, best to hope that you have natural talent, because without that you will be two steps behind from the get go. Develop contacts with dealers and other collectors that sell, nurture them. Learn the market for the coins you are interested in. Learn it well, inside and out, as to which coins are common, which are truly hard to find, and the typical wholesale and retail prices they trade at. Do all that and you'll likely make money, or at least lose less than other collectors. Or you can press the "easy" button and ask on some Internet forum and follow some stranger's advice as to what series he/she likes and you'll likely lose money. Why? Because you can't grade that series, you don't know the market for that series, you don't have any dealer connections to get good coins at good prices. Three strikes and you are out. >>
This bears repeating.
If you love the coins you'll learn what's different and what's even unique. This will
help you to learn the markets and you'll see what's fully priced and what's selling for
"speculative" prices.
I may have done it backward but I'd suggest you have fun first and then worry about
prices. Just maybe you'll find you'll never need to worry about prices.
<jmski shakes his head in amazement, once again>
I knew it would happen.
1) The world is going so far into the crapper we emrge in the dark ages... take the money you have budgeted for gold and silver... buy a 10 acre farm, some chickens, a few goats, a glock, a shotgun, a .22, a reloader, a bag of seeds, and a trowel.
2) It's a japan stylre recession and your time horizon is 10 to 20 years... they will be writing books on how DOW, GE, AMAT etc... were at firesale prices and how the smart ones shoved all their chips in, turned off the TV, and went to work and got rich.
3) Its turns into a 1930's stylr depression... revisit options 1 + 2.
Unless you have expert knowledge, coins as investments are a gambit destined to lose money.
Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever.
- 102nd Rule of Acquisition
Latinum is a rare silver liquid used as currency by the Ferengi Alliance and many other worlds. It cannot be replicated. For ease of transaction, latinum is usually suspended within gold to produce "gold-pressed" latinum. (DS9: "Who Mourns for Morn?")
Denominations of gold-pressed latinum, in order of increasing value, include the slip, the strip, the bar and the brick.
"Who Mourns for Morn?" suggests that gold is worthless, but Quark may have just stated this out of frustration and in comparison to the latinum he was expecting. See gold for more information.
Liquid latinum appears to be less harmful to humanoid life than the real-world liquid metal mercury. This is seen to be true in the episode DS9: "Who Mourns for Morn?" where Morn spits out about a hundred bricks' worth of liquid latinum into a glass, revealing he had stored his life savings of latinum in his second stomach, which had caused his hair to fall out but otherwise appears to have left him unharmed. Then again, as we know little of Morn's species, it may be the result of a strong constitution on his part.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I believe anything near melt will do
very well in the next few years.
I think Obamie the Commie will
make Jimmy Carter look like a genius.
Just give him a few years.
Not a political post, just a statement of
fact, as I see it.
$50 silver, here we come.
Regards, Steve K.
<< <i>Sounds like a lot of paranoia around here. I say go latinum! This is how Star Trek seen it!
Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever.
- 102nd Rule of Acquisition
Latinum is a rare silver liquid used as currency by the Ferengi Alliance and many other worlds. It cannot be replicated. For ease of transaction, latinum is usually suspended within gold to produce "gold-pressed" latinum. (DS9: "Who Mourns for Morn?")
Denominations of gold-pressed latinum, in order of increasing value, include the slip, the strip, the bar and the brick.
"Who Mourns for Morn?" suggests that gold is worthless, but Quark may have just stated this out of frustration and in comparison to the latinum he was expecting. See gold for more information.
Liquid latinum appears to be less harmful to humanoid life than the real-world liquid metal mercury. This is seen to be true in the episode DS9: "Who Mourns for Morn?" where Morn spits out about a hundred bricks' worth of liquid latinum into a glass, revealing he had stored his life savings of latinum in his second stomach, which had caused his hair to fall out but otherwise appears to have left him unharmed. Then again, as we know little of Morn's species, it may be the result of a strong constitution on his part. >>
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
2. 1889CC MORGAN DOLLAR PCGS VF25/VF35, never done me wrong.
3. 1885CC MORGAN DOLLAR PCGS MS65 or above.
4. 1909S VDB LINCOLN, THEY ARE A BIT DOWN AT THE MOMENT. .Best grade you can afford in a PCGS holder
5. 1909S LINCOLN NO VDB, Best grade you can afford in a PCGS holder.
6. 1909S INDIAN CENT, Best grade you can afford in a PCGS holder.
IM me and I will give you some other advise.
Al
As far as suggestions, buy what you like, maybe stick to the keys or better dates in that series. Unless it's bullion then stay away from the keys.
<< <i>I would say I am 50% knowledgable with the $5 Indian. >>
What about the other 50%. When I was in school you flunked out if you scored a 50.
<< <i>I will need to brush up on the grading this week >>
Who is going to teach you? Harry Bass?
<< <i>and then see what I find in Raw Indians. >>
Boy is this a formula for losing your proverbial butt.
CG
Sound advice.......NOT!
Ken