How many cuartos in a Spain 20r de vellon?

covers

ca. 1850 coin - I find in the literature 160 cuartos as well as 170 cuartos. They debased the 20 reales coin in 1854 and I know that it was 160 cuartos at that point.

Any help appreciated.

zeebob

+1 anyone?

TitusFlavius

The situation is confused by the concurrent "de vellon" and "de plata" coinages, and a monetary reform in 1850. According to Krause, 20 reales de vellon = 8 reales de plata. The only quarto I'm familiar with was part of the "de plata" system being 1/4 real. Using these numbers we get 20 reales de vellon = 32 quartos de plata, or 1 real de vellon = 1.6 quartos de plata. The de plata issues seem to have ceased in 1833 leaving only the de vellon.

In 1850 Spain decimalized. The largest silver coin was the 20 reales, slightly lighter than the old 20 reales de vellon. The new system didn't last long, and Spain went through another system and into a third before the end of the century.

Thus it is difficult to answer your question. The quarto, to my knowledge, was separate from the de vellon coinage. From 1808-c. 1833 the two systems coexisted. Then the de vellon coinage existed alone until decimalization in 1850. Then again, I'm just working from the 4th edition of Krause. Some coins seem to be listed in the wrong section. I'm also not familiar with any more specialized literature on 19th century Spanish coinage. What are your sources for the 160 and 170 figures? I'd be interested to know their take on this confusing period of Spanish monetary history.

covers

Thank you TitusFlavius and zeebob. My problem will likely seem very strange. I am doing a study comparing postal rates in countries around the world in the 1850 to 1860 period. To standardize the cost of postage, I am using cost expressed in terms of "absolute silver weight." To determine that, I use the crown coin in circulation when the stamps were issued (weight times purity= asw). 1850 was the last year the old style Spain 20 reales (de Vellon) was minted according to Krause Centennial Edition. In the same year of 1850 a new debased 20 reales was introduced which certainly drove the good coin out of circulation. Stamps were denominated as "cuartos."

The problem is that some of my stamp sources say 160 cuartos per 20 reales. But, I also have this fact which would indicate 170 cuartos: the 1850 6 cuartos stamp was printed in sheets of 255 stamps; the reason for this was the currency equivalence: 20 reales=170 cuartos (1 real= 8.5 cuartos); If you do the math: 255 stamps x 6 cuartos=1530 cuartos /8.5= 180 reales de vellon for an entire sheet. Same thing happens with the 4 cuartos issues, which were printed in sheets of 170 stamps: 170 stamps x 4 cuartos = 680 cuartos / 8.5= 80 reales for the sheet.

A third report mentions that the "de vellon" was not really a coin money but a money of account only. Hence my quandry. Below is the page I am trying to insure is accurate.

TitusFlavius

That's an interesting project. I know nothing of stamps so can't help on that side of things. Hold up! As I was typing this I discovered that there were Quarto denominated coins minted in Spain just prior to the reform of 1850. The individual provinces of Spain had their own coinages at times during the 19th century. Most of these issues date to the Penninsular War and the civil war at the outset of Isabel II's reign, but those of Catalonia go all the way to 1848. In Catalonia's system 120 Quartos = 30 Sueldos = 5 Pesetas = 1 Duro (an alternate name for the old 8 reales de plata). Using the 8 to 20 conversion between plata and vellon I come up with 120 quartos = 20 reales de vellon. The most common coin denominations of this issue were the 3 and 6 quarto coins. Since these were contemporary with the higher denomination real de vellon issues, I think it likely that the 20 reales de vellon coins were equivalent to 120 Catalonian Quartos. These Catalonian issues ceased in 1848, but perhaps remained as a money of account.

Perhaps when the real was debased coinciding with the first issue of decimal fractional reales, the exchange rate with the Catalonian Quarto rose to 160 or 170. Wow, this coinage system is medieval in it's complexity! The key to resolving this mystery will be to find an exchange rate for the Quarto to the Real from after the reform of 1850.

covers

TitusFlavius - Thank you again. I will go back and try the math on the Catalonian system. Of the 50 or so countries I have worked on so far, Spain has certainly been the most problematic.

When I did an exhibit of Paying The Postage for US I used actual coins and currency but with world-wide, it surprised me to find that in many cases there was no coin equal to the stamp denominations ...