Any Evidence of Trimming experts?

billwaltonsbeard

Ok, in Bill's group sub, I received several EOTs on some 86 Fleers.

I got the cards back. I don't see any reason why these got EOT. There isnt a weird edge on any of them, and most importantly IMO, none of them are any smaller at all than normal.

I needed some kind of explanation here. I emailed PSA customer service, asking how cards that are not smaller than normal could get EOTs. I did get a pretty quick reply, which didn't answer my question at all, but pretty much consisted solely of the N-1 EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING description cut and pasted from the web site.

So I'm pretty much giving up on PSA providing an explanation. I've read lots of other stories on these boards, so I know these things happen.

But can any of you please tell me what would indicate EOT on a normal sized card?? Maybe I'm missing something.

jimq112

I can usually tell by scanning the card at real high dpi and comparing the edges. I'm not sure if PSA graders look at the card under magnification or not. But it seems like a lot more are coming back EOT lately.

neenish

I had the same problem with my sub. I had about 9 cards come back EOT (from a batch of about 80 cards that I sent in from the same boxes I bought). I emailed Joe and sent the cards to him to have them re-evaluated. The customer service rep (I forgot her name since this was a few weeks back), told me that some of the EOT were actually non-gradable factory mis-cuts. PSA did manage to go over the cards I sent in and 6 of them graded PSA 9's. The other 3 were non-gradable.


Brian

sfmays24

Do what Brian did... 6 out 9 is pretty good (and 9's to boot).

Mike

digicat

<< <i>But can any of you please tell me what would indicate EOT on a normal sized card?? Maybe I'm missing something. >>



All normal cards have 6 surfaces:
The typical front and back, as well as the top, bottom, left, and right edges.

The "edge surface" can have certain distinct patterns (caused by the cutting process), and can vary between year and/or manufacturer. Especially with 80s and earlier cards.

If you managed the straightest cut with a blade, the "edge surface" will look different from that of a legit factory cut card.

Since 1986 Fleer Basketball is an important and heavily traded set, it's heavily targeted by card doctors looking to make some money. I imagine the PSA graders would be extra weary of any anomalies found on a 1986 Fleer basketball card, as opposed to a 1990 Donruss baseball card.

jimrad

billwaltonsbeard

<< <i>

<< <i>But can any of you please tell me what would indicate EOT on a normal sized card?? Maybe I'm missing something. >>



All normal cards have 6 surfaces:
The typical front and back, as well as the top, bottom, left, and right edges.

The "edge surface" can have certain distinct patterns (caused by the cutting process), and can vary between year and/or manufacturer. Especially with 80s and earlier cards.

If you managed the straightest cut with a blade, the "edge surface" will look different from that of a legit factory cut card.

Since 1986 Fleer Basketball is an important and heavily traded set, it's heavily targeted by card doctors looking to make some money. I imagine the PSA graders would be extra weary of any anomalies found on a 1986 Fleer basketball card, as opposed to a 1990 Donruss baseball card. >>



I totally understand all of that. But my question remains.....wouldn't cards that have been trimmed be slightly smaller than normal? Are there ways to trim a card and still maintain it's normal size?

neenish

<< <i>Do what Brian did... 6 out 9 is pretty good (and 9's to boot).

Mike >>



Yep, I needed those 1988 Donruss graded.....just kidding. It was for 1994 Football cards for my set.

Brian

digicat

<< <i>I totally understand all of that. But my question remains.....wouldn't cards that have been trimmed be slightly smaller than normal? Are there ways to trim a card and still maintain it's normal size? >>



Yes, if the card was slightly over-sized to begin with... or if it was cut from a sheet.


I'm a strictly baseball guy, so I am not an expert on 1986 Fleer basketball. However, if the stock and cutting process is similar to 1986 or 87 Fleer baseball, there are going to be some minor size variations right out of the pack that could give a card doc something to work with w/o going below the minimum standards.

billwaltonsbeard

<< <i>Yes, if the card was slightly over-sized to begin with... or if it was cut from a sheet.


I'm a strictly baseball guy, so I am not an expert on 1986 Fleer basketball. However, if the stock and cutting process is similar to 1986 or 87 Fleer baseball, there are going to be some minor size variations right out of the pack that could give a card doc something to work with w/o going below the minimum standards. >>



Very interesting. I know the deal with the 84 Topps Football cards cut from sheets. But I doubt very many 86 Fleer basketball sheets have been cut up. Coming out of the pack a little large is more of a possibility I guess.

WinPitcher

In my last sub of 100 cards I too got 6 EOT's they were just like the other 94.

Steve

lsutigers1973

I looked at these cards closely after receiving them back from PSA. The cards were the right size and I usually can see if a card appears trimmed by the surface of the edge. These showed no signs of trimming.

WinPitcher

Someone mentioned recently that PSA was going overboard with the EOT.

I know for sure the 6 I sent in were not trimmed. I mean why trim a 1953 Topps Don Hoak card?


Steve

fandango

<< <i>I looked at these cards closely after receiving them back from PSA. The cards were the right size and I usually can see if a card appears trimmed by the surface of the edge. These showed no signs of trimming. >>



what cards are you referring too?

RonBurgundy

So many possible responses to this thread. Sigh.

psafan

Your EOT were most likely PSA 10's.

You probably just got some guy that couldnt stand knowing you were about to make some coin looking at your cards. Hope you dont get that guy on your next submission, but you probably will, HE sees everything.

gumbyfan

<< <i>Your EOT were most likely PSA 10's.

You probably just got some guy that couldnt stand knowing you were about to make some coin looking at your cards. Hope you dont get that guy on your next submission, but you probably will, HE sees everything. >>



Troll.

rube26105

in my 175 sub- 2 adrain peterson sage rookies that would have been 10's,the others were i sent were,but both the ones by sage hit set, came back mi size requirement? i dont get it, not about to call to ask either,they are smaller than regualar sized cards though by just a hair ,i would think they would know that, maybe they dont?i matched em up with the rest of my sage hit cards,all the same size, so i guess they all get min size req

badbluedog

Since other collectors have expressed frustration regarding the return of Evidence of Trimming cards from PSA, I thought I'd relate my recent experience. I sent 13 1971 Topps cards to PSA. These cards were purchased by me in 1971 and pretty much haven't seen the light of day since then. I know that they have not been trimmed.

With all that being said, 6 of the 13 cards came back as Evidence of Trimming. Needless to say, I was disappointed and frustrated. By the way, the six cards that were EOT measure the same size as the seven that were graded.

In a post of 4/1/09 in this forum, WinPitcher/Steve indicated that he had submitted some 1953 Topps to PSA and "I have received probably 6 EOT's and all were graded the next time through."

I had the same thing happen with a 1963 Fleer Checklist that was from my childhood collection. The first time I submitted it to PSA, it came back EOT. I submitted it to PSA a second time and it came back an 8. I was thankful and frustrated at the same time.

I don't spend a whole lot of time reading posts in this forum, but it seems to me that many collectors are experiencing my EOT dilemma. Cards that collectors know 100% for sure are not trimmed are being graded as EOT. And cards submitted a second or third time go from EOT to graded.

Is Joe aware of this situation? Is this a problem that needs to be or can be rectified?

Just looking for some input! Have a great weekend!

WinPitcher

Bluedog

I share the frustration too. All it did was increase my cost of grading on each card.

I guess they feel that it is better to err on the side of caution then to allow trimmed cards through.

It is what it is, many here can grade cards as good as the PSA graders only the buying public does not care for our opinion

they want PSA's.


Steve

jradke4

i emailed joe once about a card that kept coming back min size. even when i sent it in with the another card, same type and player, same size it still came back min size. so i emailed him photos. he asked me to send them back as they were already shipped. (its amazing how fast they can ship out your order compared to grading it). so i did and low and behold it was slabbed finally.

the only EOT that i got was from a crossover attempt. it was in a GIA holder. i asked joe about this as well as i was surprised that a grader could tell and EOT from a sealed slab. but he says they can. this was my only crossover attempt. normally i crack but this is a high $$$ card, one that can sell for over $1000 raw, and one that is not easy to come by period. it took me well over 5 years on ebay to finally win one (raw, psa, bgs etc).

in many ways i wonder how they can really tell EOT...so are clear. but i have had many times a min size or evid. of recolor come back graded the second. i would assume that these would be ever clearer cut than EOTs.

hammered

If you are subbing 71 Topps, expect a good % to come back as trimmed. They are very careful on this set and any slight discrepancy apparently pulls an EOT. I've had it happen to me, where I split up a sub - one grader goes wild with the EOT on one sub, and the other graded gives the other sub all 7 and 8.

I also look at it as simply upping my sub fees, because more often than not, my EOT cards get graded after re-submitting them.

summerof68

Digicat is correct in saying that cards do sometimes come slightly oversized.

For example, back in '02 I used to frequent alot of shows out west and I would see alot of the same people over and over and began "hanging" with some of them.

Once I was at a card show in Reno and one of the individuals I hung with was buying raw rookie hall-of-famers. I noticed at one table he purchased three Elway rookies that had obvious soft corners.

I later asked him why he wanted those Elways with those corners and he said someday they'll be worth good money.

I later learned from another person in that group I hung with that this particular collector specialized in buying slightly oversized rookie hall-of-famers with very soft corners. He would then trim them and submit them to PSA. In the case of the three Elways they came back as two 9' & one 10!

Needless to say whether its singles, autographs or packs we live in an imperfect world and people will always look for a way to make a buck--be it legal, illegal, ethical or unethical.