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overrated hockey players
illinifan912
Posts: 1,462 ✭
in Sports Talk
Everyone talks so much about sidney crosby and carey price on how good they are, but why aren't they talking about ovechkin. He is on pace with gretzky for goals. Crosby didn't win the calder trophy and isn't leading any stats categories and carey price isn't starting for a disappointing montreal team. Any thoughts?
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Price...too early to say if the reality will match the expectations.
That's what I say about Ovechkin. Let him do it for a long period of time before anyone starts talking about how good he is.
Also, Bobby Orr was a +124 one year. Larry Robinson was a +120. Gretzky's best was a +94 I believe.
Ovechkin and Crosby can't even seem to be a +30, and they both play for good teams too, and on the power play.
For those who don't know, Larry Robinson is the career leader in plus/minus. Bobby Orr is 2nd. Gretzky is 3rd, and
Bobby Clarke is 4th.
Look at the plus/minus leaders this year, and there you will find the best hockey players. These are the guys who get
it done in the offensive and defensive zones.
Malkin is #26 in the league at +18.
Alexander Semin and Mike Green from Washington are +27 and +26. They are 6th and 7th in the league.
The plus/minus leaders for this year are two players from Boston, and Ducan Keith from Chicago at +32.
I think Duncan Keith is the best player in the NHL this year so far. Pavel Datsuk at +30 is also a good one.
1-Wayne Gretzky
2-Martin Brodeur
3-Alexander Ovechkin
4-Mats Sundin
5- Steve Yzerman
Sorry Lemieux but I don't see what everyone is raving about and roy isn't going to be holding alot of records soon.
Price is young, gotta give him time. Gretzky scored 136 points followed by 164 in the free wheeling 1980's (his first 2 seasons), which honestly would compare to someone getting say 115 and 128 today (which you rarely see anymore). It was his third season where he scored 212 with 92 goals. Ovechkin is probably the best player in the league right now, offensively gifted but will never break Gretzky's goal mark--NEVER. The NHL would have to open up big time over the next few seasons, can't see it happening.
I really think today that is someone scored 70 goals and had 150 points, it would be equal to what Gretzky did during his prime (only once, with 196 points, did Gretzky fail to score 200 points 5 years in a row). He is the only player in hockey history to score 200 points (Lemieux had 199). I might say Malkin has the best chance to score 150 in a year, but no one will ever reach those totals without the NHL completely changing the way it's being played right now.
Jay
<< <i>Mats Sundin? >>
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<< <i>ovechkin IS one a stanley cup contender team while crosby is "on the outside looking in" the playoff picture. I don't think that ovechkin will have 212 points but he has missed less than 10 games during his whole career and I believe he will break gretzky's record of career goals. Thinking in the future the top 5 greats of modern hockey would be:
1-Wayne Gretzky
2-Martin Brodeur
3-Alexander Ovechkin
4-Mats Sundin
5- Steve Yzerman
Sorry Lemieux but I don't see what everyone is raving about and roy isn't going to be holding alot of records soon. >>
I am sorry if I am rude but this is pure insanity!! No one will ever break the goal record of Gretzky. This record is untouchable!! As for not seeing what all the raving about Lemieux is about you must watch old tapes and read the words of experts because you obviously must not have seen him play. Lemieux was the equal of Gretzky to say the least. The man came back from cancer and chronic back issues in addition for his early seasons he played with glorified minor league or washed up players , just like Crosby has by the way. These three issues combined to keep him out of tons of games , thus holding down his career numbers. If Lemieux was healthy his whole career he may very well be the one with the all time scoring records. From 1980 to the present Gretzky and Lemieux are #1 and #1a and no one is even in the same universe with these guys. Ovechkin is a great talent but he has years to go before he can even be mentioned in the same words with Sundin , let alone these other legends that you mention. Ovechkin needs to put up at least a solid 10 years of numbers before he can be put anywhere near the legends.
<< <i>Ovechkin and Crosby can't even seem to be a +30, and they both play for good teams too, and on the power play >>
+/- is not counted on the power play. Even strength situations only.
<< <i><< Ovechkin and Crosby can't even seem to be a +30, and they both play for good teams too, and on the power play >> >>
<< <i>+/- is not counted on the power play. Even strength situations only. >>
<< <i>ovechkin IS one a stanley cup contender team while crosby is "on the outside looking in" the playoff picture. I don't think that ovechkin will have 212 points but he has missed less than 10 games during his whole career and I believe he will break gretzky's record of career goals. Thinking in the future the top 5 greats of modern hockey would be:
1-Wayne Gretzky
2-Martin Brodeur
3-Alexander Ovechkin
4-Mats Sundin
5- Steve Yzerman
Sorry Lemieux but I don't see what everyone is raving about and roy isn't going to be holding alot of records soon. >>
Wow... I don't mean to be sarcastic, but your hockey knowledge astounds me. You don't see what everyone raves about with regard to Lemieux? And you think Ovechkin can approach Gretzky's career goals total?
Someone send this man some tapes of the 80's and 90's!
To see Sundin and Ovechkin in your top 5 is concerning. I'm assuming that we're going from 1980 to present, so let's consider this:
1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Messier
4. Bourque
5. Brodeur
And that leaves off greats like Yzerman, Chelios, Hull, Stasny, Goulet, Roy, Stevens, Niedermayer, Kurri, Lidstrom, MacInnis, Pronger, Jagr and a few others. Most of these would rank ahead of Ovechkin and Sundin.
Ovechkin is one of the most gifted players in the NHL, but to compare him to Gretzky is like comparing flank steak to filet mignon.
Sundin has had a fabulous career, but one of the top 5 in the past 30 years? No disrespect, but he's not even in the top 5 centers of the past 30 years let alone top 5 of all players...
I'd really have to put Liddy ahead of Bourque. This isn't because I'm a Wings homer either, or I'd have Yzerman in the top 5. But it would really be hard for me to create a top 5. Many of these guys benefitted from better teams, certain rules or a time period more than others did. The 80's was wide open. Gretzky was they man, period!. But he was very fortunate to play with some of the greats on that Oilers team. Sure, he made them all better but those guys were going to be good anyways. The Wings also had some fairly stacked teams during the mid-to-late 90's. I'm not saying anyone could have ever matched Gretzky's numbers (just don't see it happening), but some of these players mentioned below could have had even better numbers playing with the Oilers during the 80's.
Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. do not stand far ahead of the other greats of this era like Gretzky and Lemieux did. You can put whoever you want post 1980 after them but Gretzky and Lemieux are the 1 and 2 on the list every time.
As far as the goal record, no one is on pace to break Gretzky's record and no one probably ever will. Players today are lucky to get 40 in a full season while Gretzky was doing that halfway through a season. He wasn't the most gifted player, but he was the smartest to play the game and his numbers reflect that.
Just go on youtube if you want to see how great Gretzky and Lemieux were, but if you want to talk about all-time players, then modern players won't even make the list yet. Lets give them time and see what happens since these players today are so young and have alot of play left. If you do go on youtube to watch these guys, then watch Bobby Orr since you are there and then you will see who many say is #1 all-time.
Crosby vs. Ovechkin, I would rather have Crosby. He can score AND pass, Ovechkin just scores. Crosby, like Gretzky, makes everyone around him better.
Crosby is probably a better all around offensive player (the Gretzky is this comparison) while Ovechkin is a fantastic goal scorer who has a better all around game which includes plenty of hitting and physicallity (the Lemieux of this comparision).
If I were starting a team, I'd be tempted to take Ovechkin over Crosby just as I would've taken Lemieux over Gretzky. That's not saying that Ovechkin or Lemieux are better than Crosby or Gretzky, but I think that Lemieux and Ovechkin could put a team on their back while Crosby and Gretzky needed stronger support players to maximize their effectiveness.
Another young player that gets ZERO respect and has a very solid all around game is Zach Parise. He is NEVER mentioned when people talk about the great young players, but he's gotten better every season in the league and he's not just a goal scorer or power play specialist. In fact, his yearly goals total is almost identical to his assists total and annually, his power play goals and power play points are typical about a third of his totals. This season, he has 38 goals and 38 assists, plays very solid defense and isn't afraid to take a hit even though he's not a very big player (about 4-5 inches and 30-40 less than Ovechkin).
but, I enjoyed watching em in the 80' s and early 90's. My question is.....
How will Hockey fans treat Steve Yzerman after he gets elected (And I would say, even not
following the game all that much, that he is an absolute LOCK!) as far as being talented,
team player blah blah blah. (ELECTED TO THE HOF, that is!)
I am just curious as I always loved watching him on the ice (as well as Gretzky Lemieux and
to some extent Brett Hutt) .
Fire away with YOUR opinion.
Thanks,
Tony
KalineFan
Otwcards, thanks for throwing Parise in there, but the people who don't follow the sport will only talk about Crosby and Ovechkin since ESPN only talks about Crosby and Ovechkin (not accusing any members here of not knowing what they are talking about).
As far as Yzerman goes, he is an all-time great but will always be in Gretzky's and Lemieux's shadow. He could be in the top 5 of the 80's and 90's but many will put him a little lower. He did play for a hell of a team and will always be respected by his peers. Top 10 definitely, top 5, probably not.
Thanks.
<< <i>whats one thing that only ovechkin has done, remember he won four trophies in the same season. gretzky, lemieux, crosby couldn't do that. >>
OK, we get the fact that you have a man-crush on Ovechkin.
Let's debunk you're current statement right now (you need to stop relying on Wikipedia since their information is WRONG!!!). All one needs look at is Gretzky's 1985 season:
Hart Memorial Trophy - League MVP (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as one of his four Trophies)
Art Ross Trophy - Scoring Champion (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the second of his four Trophies)
Conn Smyth Trophy - Stanley Cup MVP
Lester B. Pearson Award - Most Outstanding Player (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the third of his four Trophies)
Maurice Richard Trophy - Goals Leader (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the fourth of his four Trophies)
Emery Edge Trophy - Plus/Minus Award
Stanley Cup (the only one that really matters)
Clarence Campbell Cup - Conference Championship
Lou Marsh Trophy - Canadian Athlete of the Year
Lionel Conacher Award - Male Canadian Athlete of the Year
That was just in one season and it is all four that Ovechkin won PLUS a Stanley Cup and a Conn Smyth Trophy for the Stanley Cup MVP!!! So, PLEASE get your facts straight before offering up such foolishness!
Until Alex Oh, puts his name onthe Stanley Cup, don't even bring him up in the same breath as Gretzky or Lemieux... And if you expect Ovechkin to challenge Gretzky's goal record, consider that Alex is still 786 goals away and would have to AVERAGE 50 goals a season for another 16 seasons to break it... 786 is more than ANY OTHER player in NHL history scored in their CAREER exceptt for Gordie Howe and Gretzky!
<< <i>
<< <i>Ovechkin and Crosby can't even seem to be a +30, and they both play for good teams too, and on the power play >>
+/- is not counted on the power play. Even strength situations only. >>
You get a + if you score shorthanded...So your statement is only half correct. But, I see the point you were making on the quoted statement.
<< <i>
<< <i>whats one thing that only ovechkin has done, remember he won four trophies in the same season. gretzky, lemieux, crosby couldn't do that. >>
OK, we get the fact that you have a man-crush on Ovechkin.
Let's debunk you're current statement right now (you need to stop relying on Wikipedia since their information is WRONG!!!). All one needs look at is Gretzky's 1985 season:
Hart Memorial Trophy - League MVP (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as one of his four Trophies)
Art Ross Trophy - Scoring Champion (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the second of his four Trophies)
Conn Smyth Trophy - Stanley Cup MVP
Lester B. Pearson Award - Most Outstanding Player (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the third of his four Trophies)
Maurice Richard Trophy - Goals Leader (Ovechkin won this in 2008 as the fourth of his four Trophies)
Emery Edge Trophy - Plus/Minus Award
Stanley Cup (the only one that really matters)
Clarence Campbell Cup - Conference Championship
Lou Marsh Trophy - Canadian Athlete of the Year
Lionel Conacher Award - Male Canadian Athlete of the Year
That was just in one season and it is all four that Ovechkin won PLUS a Stanley Cup and a Conn Smyth Trophy for the Stanley Cup MVP!!! So, PLEASE get your facts straight before offering up such foolishness!
Until Alex Oh, puts his name onthe Stanley Cup, don't even bring him up in the same breath as Gretzky or Lemieux... And if you expect Ovechkin to challenge Gretzky's goal record, consider that Alex is still 786 goals away and would have to AVERAGE 50 goals a season for another 16 seasons to break it... 786 is more than ANY OTHER player in NHL history scored in their CAREER exceptt for Gordie Howe and Gretzky! >>
I agree with just about all of this, but I really disagree with the idea that Ovechkin (or anyone else) needs to have his name engraved on a Stanley Cup before he can be considered for entry into the pantheon of great NHLers. Gretzky won his championships when there were 22 teams, AND no salary cap. Also, the way the game was officiated in the 1980's just so happened to dovetail perfectly with his style of play. Similar considerations apply to Lemieux (although perhaps to a lesser extent). Also, the game played much slower 20 years ago. I remember when Bure burst into the league-- nobody, to that point, had ever skated that fast (or at least so it seemed to me. Maybe Paul Coffey could have given him a run, but Bure's speed really did seem to set him apart). In today's game, by contrast, you've got all kinds of guys who can really skate-- and these are the guys who AO and company are competing against every night.
Hart Memorial Trophy
Lester B. Pearson Award
Art Ross Trophy
there was no such thing as the maurice richard trophy until 1998-99 season
<< <i>Gretzky won these trophies in 1985:
Hart Memorial Trophy
Lester B. Pearson Award
Art Ross Trophy
there was no such thing as the maurice richard trophy until 1998-99 season >>
You are correct, it was just an award for the leading goal scorer that was later changed to the Maurice Richard Trophy. That does not change the fact that he won the award, plus the Conn Smyth Trophy.
If you wish to put Ovechkin on par with Getzky and/or ahead of Lemieux, that's your choice, but it demonstrates a complete disregard for the history of the game and a very sad understanding of how extraordinary Gretzky and Lemieux really were.
<< <i>how many games did wayne gretzky miss? >>
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Until Ovechkin stops making runs at players and leaving his feet to make hits he will always lack the respect in alot of hardcore hockey fans eyes. His hit from behind on that guy from Buffalo when he was heading for a line change could have killed him. Ovechkin makes stupid hits like that once a week it seems.
<< <i>illinifan912 are you russian? as on most of the NHL chats and blogs there seems to be a huge Russia vs. Canada issue between Crosby vs. Ovechkin which is funny since Malkin is better than both. Really it's like a holy war between Russians and Canadians on who is better.
Until Ovechkin stops making runs at players and leaving his feet to make hits he will always lack the respect in alot of hardcore hockey fans eyes. His hit from behind on that guy from Buffalo when he was heading for a line change could have killed him. Ovechkin makes stupid hits like that once a week it seems. >>
Don't worry Jason... It's not that simple. I think that Illinifan is the byproduct of ESPN. Forget Crosby, he wants to suggest that Ovechkin is better than Gretzky and that Lemieux is overrated. With that sort of logic, any level of discussion is pointless.
<< <i>illinifan912 are you russian? as on most of the NHL chats and blogs there seems to be a huge Russia vs. Canada issue between Crosby vs. Ovechkin which is funny since Malkin is better than both. Really it's like a holy war between Russians and Canadians on who is better.
Until Ovechkin stops making runs at players and leaving his feet to make hits he will always lack the respect in alot of hardcore hockey fans eyes. His hit from behind on that guy from Buffalo when he was heading for a line change could have killed him. Ovechkin makes stupid hits like that once a week it seems. >>
AO is going to get lit up by someone this year in the playoffs. It'll be a Brian Campbell/ R.J Umberger type collision. Someone like Chara is going to get possessed with the diabolical soul of Scott Stevens sometime during a game, and they'll be mopping up AO's blood for the next twenty minutes.
Those kinds of bush-league hits can go unpunished in the regular season, when everyone has basically mailed it in since December. But in April it's a whole different story.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29242316/
Anyone trying to compare Gretzky or Lemieux to Bobby Orr isn't old enough to have seen them play either.
Bobby Orr on good knees was the most incredible hockey player ever to live. Gretzky a close second. Lemieux a close third.
Ovechkin isn't even in the same hemisphere.