IKE Experts: What would a PCGS MS69 72-S go for?

braddick · February 23, 2002 11:19AM

I know the pops are single digit when you enter the MS69 arena on these 40% silver Ikes. On a sight-seen basis, what would a 'real' PQ, "all there" MS69 go for?

Now, if by some freak of nature a MS70 was made- a flawless 1972-S Ike- would there be a market for it or are Ike Collectors looking to spread their buying dollars and not tie them up in a single coin?

cjmbuffalo · February 23, 2002 12:08PM

Braddick:

Easily a five figure coin with out a doubt. Somewhere between $12-15,000. If a MS-70 came along and its the real thing there would be a buyer for it. The only draw back is how high can the modern market guys go before they have to think twice about paying prices in the stratosphere.

Endocrinologist · February 23, 2002 12:16PM

5 digits seems a little too high. The 1974-D IKE ERROR (struck on silver planchet) realized around $3000 in the Fall this past year. Link

In my humble opinion, think $3000-$5000 is a ceiling right (even for a MS69 silver) now given the nation's economy. I think the best opinion are those IKEsters who are in the high grade market. High grade Clads are a different story.

What do others think?

Endo

fantasiize · February 23, 2002 12:26PM

We have had several posts on the 72s MS69 Ikes, but I could not find any (perhpas they were archived/deleted).

I believe that all 3 were graded around the same timeframe (when MS69s and PF70s were popular with the Ike series). Popular opinion was that at least 1 and maybe 2 probably did not deserve the MS69 grade, but I have not seen any of them so I cannot speak for myself. Certainly, given the rarity, I would like to see anything like that before purchase.

I also believe that the last one sold for about $3k (+/- a few $100s back in late '99/early '00 ?). Some folks in other posts suggest a $5k price (+/- $500). $6,000 would probably flush one of these out.

Regarding MS70, I seriously doubt that any will make it (too large a coin AND all Ikes were generally minted in XF grades). My personal opinion, is that there may not even be any true MS69s.

Only time will tell ...

segoja · February 23, 2002 1:26PM

There is at least one of the MS 69's that is overgraded by at least 2 grades. I actually owned the coin for a short period of time. Bought it from teletrade for about $400. I sent it back immediately as severely overgraded. Given the current market, I should have kept it. Show me a collector or dealer who hasn't made this mistake and I'll show you a prevaricator.

I also sold a super duper MS68 over 11 years ago. This was when making a 67 was tough (Before any 71-S was graded 67). Believe or not PCGS was tougher in the early years (small slab) than today. I sold this coin for over $1000 when MS68's were bringing $200. This coin would for sure go MS69. It's by far the nicest IKE I've ever seen. Unfortunately I can't buy the coin back for any number.

As far as the MS69 pricing, forget the one I describe above. I'd pay $2000 for it just to have it, but I'm dure Dennis and Greg would pay more.

As for the other two, if they are as nice as the one I sold, I'd pay $4000-5000 for the coin sight seen, of course.

braddick · February 23, 2002 2:21PM

Thanks for the good info. I've seen plenty of these in MS67 holders and even own one MS68 myself (for my Modern type set). There sure is a difference. The 68's take on a real pleasant, smooth look. I'd love to see a 69! -I've got a couple into PCGS right now for crossover from other holders. Two of them looked near flawless to me and I'm pretty critical (even though I own the coins!). We'll see.

Monstavet · February 23, 2002 3:25PM

Just out of curiosity, what kind of price range do the 68s go for? Thanx!

fantasiize · February 23, 2002 11:35PM

The 68s generally go for $90 - $125 with a little extra for the premium pieces. Most should certainly fall under $150 to $175 (unless desparation/emotions set in at which point they can top off at about $200). It is the most common Silver Business Strike MS68 with a pop of 422 (as of two weeks ago) with no MS68 for the 1971s.

The summary of the 5 Business Strike Silver Ikes are:
1971s 103 in MS67 (top grade)
1972s 422 in MS68 (3 in MS69)
1973s 205 in MS68 (top grade)
1974s 178 in MS68 (top grade)
1976s 48 in MS68 (top grade)

fantasiize · April 16, 2003 11:40AM

TTT (in celebration of Grandam's recent success).

Trying to find the other threads.

Datentype · April 16, 2003 12:19PM

I think it's worth more than a lot of the ms67 clad IKE's with just slightly higher pops if it's a true ms69 coin. I put the value at $6-$8K but I'm telling you coincidently I have a real ripper in there that should 9.

fantasiize · April 16, 2003 12:22PM

When we had more discussions regarding this coin in this grade (about 18 months ago or so) a board member was very confident that one could be "flushed out" for about $5,000.

If we DO make it up to 5 of them (Grandam's and Datentype's) I think $5,000 would still be a good plateau (given more demand with the Ike series BUT the higher pop, purely my opinion).

Let's see how this one unfolds.

segoja · April 16, 2003 1:09PM

First, Congrats to Grandam for making a 72-S in MS69.

The coin was made in a bulk submission. One must see the coin before any real value can be assigned.

It is the fourth coin made. I know where one is, and have been trying to purchase for some time at a level that I think is reality. I may still yet coax it out. $5,000-6000 is too high. There are many nice 68's and now 5 69's. How many more????

The real question to me is has PCGS loosened up 1/2 point on Modern.

I point to the increase in 76-S in 68. I recently made 2 in one batch out of 6 coins. One of which I've been trying for over 1 year to get in a 68 holder.

If they've loosened ever so slightly, then that takes the value down.

This coin should be compared to a MS69 1881-S Morgan. What are they worth???? What ius the relative comaprison to an MS68? A very nice MS68 72-S is worth $200-300.

Can someone help on the Morgan comparison??

Obviously a tough coin.

We'll see what it does.

jcping · April 16, 2003 2:00PM

Here is a point. PCGS assigned 1 point for 72-S Ike dollar. Moving from MS68 to MS69 could only gain 0.01 point Weighted GPA so that from set registry ranking point of view, the investment is poor.

Most 72-S Ike dollars have satiny luster, its size is big and its weight is heavy; thus they are very difficult to reach MS69 grade. The one, MS68, I bought from a board member (well over $90 - $120 range) is an exception one with flashy luster. Nevertheless, with a few tiny extra contact ticks, the coin cannot make MS69.

If, indeed, an MS69 72-S Ike with flash luster and almost no mark in the field and on the device, it could be a $3000 to $5000 coin. For any satiny luster MS69 72-S, even with ZERO marks, $3000 might be pricy. Just my 2c.

dbldie55 · April 16, 2003 5:01PM

I would pay an even $3 for it. Since most here feel it is worth more, I am sure you won't offer it to me. But, who cares! It is no different than almost every other ugly Ike.

Now, if you think it is worth 5 figures, how about $00003.00!

Stooge · April 16, 2003 11:27PM

I would pay an even $3 for it. Since most here feel it is worth more, I am sure you won't offer it to me. But, who cares! It is no different than almost every other ugly Ike.

Now, if you think it is worth 5 figures, how about $00003.00!

See what I mean. A comment w/o thought.

Paul B. Gunsallus

Typetone · April 17, 2003 1:05AM

The coin will trade for whatever the highest bidder will pay and that is what it is worth for the moment. My guess is that Grandam will get at least $6,000 for it if it is a real 69. A shot exists for much more.

Greg

fantasiize · April 17, 2003 3:23AM

Just a post to note my signature ...

supercoin · April 17, 2003 7:06AM

baseball, I think segoja meant to look at the relative price difference between the MS68/69 Morgan and apply that same percentage to the MS68/69 Ike. It might be an interesting comparision -- both coins are easy to find in high grades within their series.

I've been out of touch with the market the last few months and the question segoja brings up about grading standards is an important one, but even still I'd agree with Greg's assesment.

And $6000 would be "cheap" compared to the most recent PR70 sales, for example.

segoja · April 17, 2003 8:38AM

Tad, You are correct. I would never imply that an Ike in MS69 is worth what a Morgan in MS69 is. Demand is far greater for the Morgan series.

Personally, I think the price of a MS69 72-S is way overrated relative to it's true rarity. As JC points out, a super nice 68 with great luster vs the satiny luster makes a nice 68 look cheap.

The 69, to bring top dollar must be the crisp fresh luster found only on the 72-S and very seldomly on a 73-S or 74-S.

I'll do my Morgan Ms68/69 quantity analysis and share in a moment. What I don;t knoiw is prices for MS68's or MS69's on the Morgan side.

segoja · April 17, 2003 9:13AM

If Fantasizes numbers from a few weeks ago are correct...and I'm not sure they are, then PCGS has for sure loosened up. I'll illustrate:

Two Weeks Ago Pop Current %increase in 2 weeks
1971-S 67 103 120 16.5%
1972-S 68/69 422 540 28%
1973-S 68 205 275 34%
1974-S 68 175 238 36%
1976-S 68 48 64 33%

Series 953 1237 30%

This is a huge increase in the finest pop coins across the board. Remeber PCGS has been grading for over 15 years, and in 2 weeks to get this type of jump acroos the entire series.

Here is my Morgan analysis.

Morgans Pop 67 68 69
1880-S 1219 105(8.6% of 67) 5 (4.8% of 68)
1881-S 1087 70 (6.4% of 67) 2 (2.9% of 68)

1972-S 2361 536 (22.7% of 67) 4 (.75% of 68)

Relatively speaking, to the 80-S ( the common date for 69 if there is one) is 1/6th the relative rarity (MS68 to MS69) as that of the 1972-S. What this would tell me from a pure analytical perspective is that the price of a 1972-S should be 6 times the relative difference between a MS68 Morgan and a MS69 Morgan and the gap between the 72-s in 68/69.

Here would be my equation: ( sounds like high school math ) Need some peoples help in the prices, as I've guessed.

Morgan 68 $3000 69 $20000 or 6.6 times

If the Ike is 6 times as rare we would take the 6.6 X 6 or 39.6 times that of an MS68.

The average price of a 72-S in 68 is $100. I cite Teletrade prices as low as $75 and e-bay recent sales at $125 and average.

This would make the value of a MS69 72-S Ike around $4000.

Anyone care to share some more facts or poke at my logic ( you won't offend me at all)

segoja · April 17, 2003 9:16AM

Sorry for the poor formatting.

I thought I spaced everything out so it was readable.

supercoin · April 17, 2003 4:20PM

If those pop increases are correct, then Grandam should SEEEELLL!!

Another issue with the Morgan/Ike comparison is whether the Ike grading is as consistent as the Morgan grading. Since Morgans have been nauseatingly popular for years, there are many more people with experience grading them and I would think that would tend to make them be graded more consistently. What is known about some of the existing Ike MS69s seems to back that up. On the other hand, the only MS69 Morgan I've seen in person looked overgraded to me, so who knows.

fantasiize · April 17, 2003 10:40PM

Please note that my pop numbers were from Feb 2002 as I have brought this thread back to life.

I'll look at some more numbers and post again later tonight.

tgilliams · April 18, 2003 1:27AM

NGC Pop
1972 MS69 Ike - 0
1972-D MS69 - 0
1972-S MS69 - 5

cjmbuffalo · April 18, 2003 3:38AM

Don't know if this make any sense but should the MS69 sell for in the range of 8x the PCGS price of the MS68 =$7600

GRANDAM · April 18, 2003 4:08AM

DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT CJMBUFFALO'S POST MEANS?

GRANDAM

supercoin · April 18, 2003 5:40AM

It means the PCGS board doesn't like HTML.

Here's what it says:

cjmbuffalo · April 18, 2003 6:30AM

Pardon my post. I included a table and it turned it into a mess when posted.

I was trying to show a formula that would infer that the MS69 would be worth around $7800.

GRANDAM · April 18, 2003 8:28AM

Check-out #3040453 for my latest encore in Modern Commeratives.

GrandAm

segoja · April 18, 2003 10:10AM

Charlie,

Edit your post and delete all the "stuff"

Like to see you math analysis.

I think the point of inconsistency is a big one.

We'll see what the coin brings!

wondercoin · April 22, 2003 10:10AM

Pat: Not sure what it will "go for", but, it is up on ebay now under my auctions. I expect to be adding scans of the coin by tomorrow.

Wondercoin

jcping · April 22, 2003 11:41AM

Best luck wondercoin for your ebay auction. I really would like to know whether anyone will pay $11,465 (or higher) for an S-mint Ike dollar.

segoja · April 22, 2003 12:49PM

JC,

Good question!!!

We'll know the answer in less than 10 days!

GRANDAM · April 22, 2003 2:51PM

Hello,

Much has been written about the PCGS MS69 1972-S Silver Eisenhower Dollar recently graded by PCGS. As I am the original owner & the person who "MADE" it in a Bulk submission of 252 Silver Ike Dollars to PCGS I will offer my humble opinion. For those of you who don't already know I have sold the coin to Mitch Spivack aka "WONDERCOIN" Mitch was a PLEASURE to deal with and made me BY FAR the best and highest offer on this coin. For that I would like to THANK him & I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND him to anyone wanting to buy or sell high end coins.

Now as for the coin,,, it is BY FAR the FINEST Silver IKE Dollar I have ever seen!!!! It has BLAZING original surfaces & is virtually defect free. I have sent approximately 1500 Silver IKE'S to PCGS for grading in the last 14 months & this coin is by far SUPERIOR to any of the other coins I have handled. Mitch has this coin on eBay,,, I hand delivered it today. If anyone is looking for the FINEST Silver IKE Dollar graded by PCGS,,,, in my opinion,,,,, this coin is it!!!!

Now it is with great sadness I must go & remove it from my #16 PCGS Eisenhower Dollar Registry Set as it is no longer my coin. CONGRATULATIONS to WONDERCOIN & to whoever owns it next. It is a fine coin & the new owner will be pleased with it.

Thanks for all the interest & the post on this subject.

GrandAm

P.S. I have many nice PCGS MS68's in 1972-S, 73-S & 74-S for anyone wanting a nice coin for a little less money.

oreville · April 23, 2003 2:27PM

Cool, Grandam and wondercoin!

I have a older green insert PCGS MS-68 1973-S Ike that looks just like your 1972-S Ike except it has a die crack right at the date. For that reason, I suspect it will never make a MS-69.

Does PCGS have an official position regarding such die cracks and the grading of MS-69?

I keep thinking it was an 1972-S as mentioned to wondercoin but it is indeed an 1973-S.

A coin such as the 1972-S Ike in MS-69 might normally achieve a price of between $5K and $10K but for a very motivated buyer who must have the best an extra $5K would not seem rediculous especially when the pocket is deep enough and time is at a premium for such collector.

Especially when it probably took Grandam $10,000 value divided by 5000 hours to find this coin equals $2 an hour!

Just had to provide a little perspective!!!

wondercoin · April 24, 2003 11:58AM

"Does PCGS have an official position regarding such die cracks and the grading of MS-69?"

Oreville: I do not know, but, I find your coin to be fascinating. As you know, PCGS has never graded a 1973(s) Ike in MS69. Now, that would be a "classic modern" rarity of enormous proportions IMHO. And, a super "PQ" MS68 would likely command a sizeable premium in the right auction.

Incidently, the concept of "manhours" being linked to value has been discussed before and, in the case of moderns, I still believe it is an interesting concept. And, if you think lawyers sometimes overbill their time, could you imagine what a professional "coin searcher" who bills his "big hit" modern coins by the number of hours dedicated to the search might do to "pad" his hours.

Wondercoin

segoja · April 24, 2003 12:43PM

I have a 73-S that I've submitted numerous times for a 69.

Coin is mark free.

Not sure what they are looking for.

As for die cracks..can't imagine them grading a coin a 69 with a die crack, even though it was made that way at the mint. It would certainly detratc from over all eye appeal, no matter how nice the coin was.

For that reason, I can't ever see any planchet or other die realted rpoblem on a coin making it in a 69 holder.

khayse · April 25, 2003 8:27AM

LINK

Nice looking coin. It will be interesting to see what it sells for.

-KHayse

keithdagen · April 25, 2003 9:17AM

As for die cracks..can't imagine them grading a coin a 69 with a die crack, even though it was made that way at the mint. It would certainly detratc from over all eye appeal, no matter how nice the coin was.

I had a PCGS MS-70 Gold $5 bullion piece once. It had two struck-thru fragments on the planchet. Otherwise perfect. PCGS's definition allows for mint-made errors in high grade, so I doubt a die crack would hold it back.

CarlWohlforth · April 25, 2003 10:29AM

I downgraded a PR 70 Jefferson with what looked like a strike through.... It was a flaw in my eyes, the coin wasn't perfect. PCGS agreed with that one.

IKE Experts: What would a PCGS MS69 72-S go for?

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