Selig Update

otwcards · February 13, 2009 1:04PM

In order to clarify an earlier statement, Bud Selig no longer holds "interest" in the Milwaukee Brewers, having officially reliquished his "interest" in the club in 2004 (12 years AFTER becoming "acting" and "official" Commissioner of Major League Baseball). His daughter, Wendy Selig-Prieb, actually "managed" her father's "interest" in the Brewers before his "interest" was eventually placed in trust in 1998 when Selig was "promoted" to "official" Commissioner of Major League Baseball.

The club was sold to Mark Attanasio (lead investor), John Canning Jr, David Uihlein, Harris Turer and Stephen Marcus. Interestingly, John Canning Jr, David Uihlein and Harris Turer were the investors in the group led by Bud Selig that had PREVIOUSLY owned the Brewers and currently sit on the Advisory Board of the Milwaukee Brewers. Marcus was also part of the both investment groups, but has no Advisory position with the Brewers.

It has been suggested that if/when Selig retires from his post as Commissioner, that he will be invited by Canning, Uihlein, and Turer to return to the investment group.

Accordingly, while Selig held an interest in the Brewers for 12 years while operating as acting and official Commissioner, he no longer is officially involved in the ownership of the Brewers.

However, none of this diminishes the fact that he is a dolt and I will stand by anything I have said previously.

Furthermore, should several of the "playground crew" wish to jump on this, be my guest. I'd rather have multiple root canals without anesthesia that engage in useless dialog with them. Feel free to join the dance...

goraiders · February 13, 2009 1:12PM

Scott,

I'm not sure what any of that means,but I'm with ya!

J.R.

Not a baseball guy at all.

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 1:37PM

I can't tell if you lost your sack or if you lost your original post on the subject.

For the record, he was "acting" commissioner in 1992 and did not become the "official" commissioner until 1998. Also for the record, steroids and HGH were in the game LONG before Bud Selig was made to be commissioner. Also for the record, he is "credited for the financial turnaround of baseball during his tenure with a 400 percent increase in the revenue of MLB and annual record breaking attendance."

You can keep on regurgitating what you've heard in the media for the past few years, it's the same old song and dance. The bang wagoners are on board. Many who actually know something about baseball don't necessarily agree.

Jerome Holtzman, MLB's Official Historian from 1999 to 2008 believed that Bud Selig was the best commissioner in the history of the game. While I understand that the bar wasn't set very high, it's difficult to place the blame squarely on his shoulders, and his shoulders alone, for the immaturity, the lack of integrity and the cheating of baseball players throughout it's entire history.

It's a shame that people like you seem to hold him responsible for the ones under his watch, but hold nobody responsible for the ones before his turn.

Shame on you, you indignant, pompous fool.

edited to add: I obtained much of my backup for this discussion from Bud Selig's wikipedia page.

grote15 · February 13, 2009 1:46PM

Selig may be a likeable guy and all, but I don't believe he will go down as one of baseball's better commissioners...there's an equal amount of blame to go around for the steroid mess, both on the players' union and on MLB, but there is little doubt that very little was done until things had gotten way out of hand...

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 1:47PM

Chat room is open if you two wanna duke it out.

Sincerely,

The Instigator

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 1:53PM

<< Furthermore, should several of the "playground crew" wish to jump on this, be my guest. I'd rather have multiple root canals without anesthesia that engage in useless dialog with them. Feel free to join the dance...

>>

Many people would agree that making bold statements that are patently false on a public forum, only to be corrected by those who you feel are beneath you could be very painful - almost damaging to their ego.

I can understand preferring to have multiple root canals without anesthesia than have that happen.

Thankfully, I don't feel there's anyone beneath me. The advantage to my position with people like you is that I also don't feel there's anyone I'm beneath.

I'm sorry to have peed in your wheaties today. However, when you make bold statements that are patently false on a public forum, you should expect an answer. It's your choice how you deal with that.

edited to add: I like Bill's idea...so feel free to join a lively discussion in chat

lawnmowerman · February 13, 2009 2:06PM

<< I can't tell if you lost your sack or if you lost your original post on the subject. >>

If this were multiple choice, I would have to go A. "lost your sack"

In the history of cu, I have never seen a poster come on here and speak like he is an authority on something but when "challenged" he runs off and hides.

In my personal experience with the op, he pm'd me one night like he was a bad a-- trying to fight. After a while going back and forth, I tried to be the bigger man and end it with the guy. He kept it up and said "I am so enjoying this"....That was a mistake.

Long story short, I ended up proving him wrong and like he always does, he ran and hid.

By the way, I love the little statement below just thrown out there as an excuse not to back up anything he says LOL

<< Furthermore, should several of the "playground crew" wish to jump on this, be my guest. I'd rather have multiple root canals without anesthesia that engage in useless dialog with them. Feel free to join the dance... >>

storm888 · February 13, 2009 2:30PM

While the guy inherited the drug problems, it WAS within his
power to solve those problems; actually, it was his JOB and
DUTY to do so.

He simply refused to take action. VERY likely he was encouraged
not to; that means he should have resigned as an act of honor
and display of decency, if he was a good-faith actor.

Short-term profits are often too expensive.

otwcards · February 13, 2009 2:41PM

<< Short-term profits are often too expensive. >>

Profits? In December 2001, Selig claimed that 25 of the 30 Major League teams lost money and that the league was $4,000,000,000.00 in the hole. That's FOUR BILLION DOLLARS to the bad. To date, no one has seen proof of this allegation.

Selig is not the only one who should garner blame over the current state of PED's in baseball. While it is obvious that he turned a blind eye to it, the owners, the players and the MLBPA bear eqaul responsibilty. No one "forced" the players to take the drugs. However, the MLBPA made certain that it would be almost impossible to force them NOT to.

nightcrawler · February 13, 2009 2:50PM

Can anyone find the clarifications bigger?

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 3:04PM

<< Profits? In December 2001, Selig claimed that 25 of the 30 Major League teams lost money and that the league was $4,000,000,000.00 in the hole. That's FOUR BILLION DOLLARS to the bad. To date, no one has seen proof of this allegation. >>

Could you please provide your source for this information? I must have missed where Bud claimed that the league was $4 billion (I'll leave the zeroes and decimals off, no need for your drama) in the hole.

Many thanks.

edited to add: Feel free to reply here. There's no need to create (another) new thread on my account.

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 3:06PM

Does this dress make me look fat?

storm888 · February 13, 2009 3:10PM

For MANY years, Forbes and others have KNOWN that the
"we lose money" stuff was carpola.

Forbes

////////////////////////////

The Tax Dodgers

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 3:14PM

<< 

<< Profits? In December 2001, Selig claimed that 25 of the 30 Major League teams lost money and that the league was $4,000,000,000.00 in the hole. That's FOUR BILLION DOLLARS to the bad. To date, no one has seen proof of this allegation. >>

Could you please provide your source for this information? I must have missed where Bud claimed that the league was $4 billion (I'll leave the zeroes and decimals off, no need for your drama) in the hole.

Many thanks.

edited to add: Feel free to reply here. There's no need to create (another) new thread on my account. >>

I'm guessing you're confused, Scott. According to Selig's testimony at the antitrust hearings before Congress in December 2001, the numbers he had showed operating revenues of $3.5 billion and operating expenses of $3.7 billion. $200 million in losses is a far cry from $4,000,000,000.00 (FOUR BILLION DOLLARS) in losses as you indicate he claimed.

Of course, feel free to show your source. I'll be more than happy to say I'm wrong if you can provide a reputable source on that.

I doubt you'll reciprocate if/when you're wrong (again).

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 3:16PM

I have gas

bobbybakeriv · February 13, 2009 3:20PM

Okay. Enough. One of you likes Selig, the other hates him. I think Selig is a duplicitous jackass. Who cares? My opinion likely means very little to him.

Move on fellas. I like it a whole lot better when you are posting Jim Gantner or Willie Stargell results.

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 3:21PM

I like puppies

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 3:23PM

<< Okay. Enough. One of you likes Selig, the other hates him. I think Selig is a duplicitous jackass. Who cares? My opinion likely means very little to him.

Move on fellas. I like it a whole lot better when you are posting Jim Gantner or Willie Stargell results. >>

I disagree. I don't think either of us like Bud Selig. I am thankful he kept baseball in Milwaukee, but that's about where it ends for me. I just think he's done enough things wrong that people don't need to pile on with fictitious stories about him.

I'll be posting more Jim Gantner results in due time.

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 3:24PM

<< I like puppies >>

To think, just a few days ago you were at 5000 posts. Now you're closing in on 5300.

Quality.

nightcrawler · February 13, 2009 3:24PM

<< Does this dress make me look fat? >>

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 3:25PM

5298

lawnmowerman · February 13, 2009 3:26PM

<< Does this dress make me look fat? >>

No your face does

bobbybakeriv · February 13, 2009 3:27PM

<< 

<< Okay. Enough. One of you likes Selig, the other hates him. I think Selig is a duplicitous jackass. Who cares? My opinion likely means very little to him.

Move on fellas. I like it a whole lot better when you are posting Jim Gantner or Willie Stargell results. >>

I disagree. I don't think either of us like Bud Selig. I am thankful he kept baseball in Milwaukee, but that's about where it ends for me. I just think he's done enough things wrong that people don't need to pile on with fictitious stories about him.

I'll be posting more Jim Gantner results in due time.

>>

Fair enough. Keep 'em coming!

lsutigers1973 · February 13, 2009 3:27PM

<< No your face does >>

Well, your momma's so old her social security number is 3

lawnmowerman · February 13, 2009 3:32PM

<< 

<< No your face does >>

Well, your momma's so old her social security number is 3 >>

Speaking of social security;

Did you know that U.S. Social Security is a social insurance program funded through dedicated payroll taxes called Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA). Tax deposits are formally entrusted to Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund, or Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund, Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund or the Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Fund. The main part of the program is sometimes abbreviated OASDI (Old Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance) or RSDI (Retirement, Survivors, and Disability Insurance). When initially signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1935 as part of his New Deal, the term Social Security covered unemployment insurance as well. The term, in everyday speech, is used to refer only to the benefits for retirement, disability, survivorship, and death, which are the four main benefits provided by traditional private-sector pension plans. In 2004 the U.S. Social Security system paid out almost $500 billion in benefits. By dollars paid, the U.S. Social Security program is the largest government program in the world and the single greatest expenditure in the federal budget, with 20.9% for social security and 20.4% for Medicare/Medicaid, compared to 20.1% for military expenditure. Social Security is currently the largest social insurance program in the U.S., constituting 37% of government expenditure and 7% of the gross domestic product and is currently estimated to keep roughly 40% of all Americans age 65 or older out of poverty. The Social Security Administration is headquartered in Woodlawn, Maryland, just to the west of Baltimore.

nightcrawler · February 13, 2009 3:34PM

Speakin of mommas, you guys wanna check which one of yours forgot her toothbrush at ma haas?

lawnmowerman · February 13, 2009 3:35PM

<< Speakin of mommas, you guys wanna check which one of yours forgot her toothbrush at ma haas? >>

It must be my mom's being that Bill's mom has no teeth.

gwinny · February 13, 2009 3:35PM

Supporting Bud Selig and his position over his term as MLB commish would only fly if you happen to be CEO of one of the banking companies on wall street. This guy started his postion in an obvious conflict of interest of which I can't understand why MLB allowed. In any other profession, especially the medical profession in which I am in, his application would have been laughed upon. MLB is a microcosm of what is happening on wall street and big business (car companies/mortgage/banking) over the past 20 years and now. The big men at the top are protecting their interest by protecting their own (it's human nature). Unfortunately, the government, which has the only authority on big business, is almost as corrupt as the CEO's/commish's of these "companies", and the are probably all in bed together. If the nonsense/rule breaking that has occurred in MLB had happened on a ship in the Navy or a regiment of Marines, the first action by the leadership of the Navy would have been to remove and hold accountable the person in charge. That doesn't happen when people in powerful positions are filling each other's pockets. Instead of grilling MLB baseball players (pawns) about their steroid use in front of a congressional hearing (wasting our tax player dollars), they should have ousted Selig as the commissioner (whether he had knowledge or not, he was in charge), and placed someone to immediately fix the steroid/illegal drug problem.

gumbyfan · February 13, 2009 3:35PM

<< Speakin of mommas, you guys wanna check which one of yours forgot her toothbrush at ma haas? >>

I'm sure otwcards will make wild accusations that it was Bud Selig's mom, but won't provide any proof or sources.

nightcrawler · February 13, 2009 3:40PM

<< It must be my mom's being that Bill's mom has no teeth. >>

I know

lawnmowerman · February 13, 2009 3:42PM

<< 

<< It must be my mom's being that Bill's mom has no teeth. >>

I know

>>

Tabe · February 13, 2009 5:34PM

<< I'm guessing you're confused, Scott. According to Selig's testimony at the antitrust hearings before Congress in December 2001, the numbers he had showed operating revenues of $3.5 billion and operating expenses of $3.7 billion. $200 million in losses is a far cry from $4,000,000,000.00 (FOUR BILLION DOLLARS) in losses as you indicate he claimed.

Of course, feel free to show your source. I'll be more than happy to say I'm wrong if you can provide a reputable source on that.

I doubt you'll reciprocate if/when you're wrong (again). >>

$200M in annual losses is different from $4,000,000,000 in the hole. Pretty sure Selig was counting all accumulated debt for the league - moneys owed toward the purchase of teams, stadiums, etc - not just losses for one season as you're doing.

Tabe

otwcards · February 13, 2009 10:50PM

See Page 5, Paragraph 1. "The interest I speak of relates predominantly to debt that is staggering in its proportions. The total industry debt is currently over $3 billion, as shown on Chart 4. If you add deferred compensation and future, guaranteed obligations to players, that number approaches $8 billion. Needless to say, those numbers are the highest in Baseball history, and, incredibly, they are still growing rapidly. Two of Baseball’s bankers spoke to the clubs at our meeting last week and underscored the severity of this situation."

Forgive me for rounding up and for not using the total number Selig used adjusted obligations when he quoted nearly $8,000,000,000.00 in debt. Forgive me also for not noting that shortly after quoting that 25 of the 30 teams lost money, that he amended that to be that ONLY the NY Yankees and Cleveland Indians made money in 2001. At the same time, while the game was allegedly in such dire straights, Selig announced (in November, 2001) that ownerd agreed to raise his annual salary and extend his contract for three more years.

Feel free to spin this some other way if you'd like.

gumbyfan · February 14, 2009 12:16AM

Thank you, Scott. I was looking for his actual testimony and could not find it.

While that number sounds outlandish, when you present it in the appropriate fashion it makes sense.

Using your number, $4 billion, and dividing by 30 teams (I know this isn't realistic since you can't compare the Yankees to the Twins financially, but try to follow)...the average "debt" for each of these teams was $133,333,333 at that point in time.

What is debt? Mortgages on their ballparks? Payroll & benefits? Expenses?

This debt is like anyone else's - just on a MUCH grander scale. Income (ticket sales, etc.) are allocated to this debt and the debt is paid down. The debt is further extended when signing new players, etc.

A high amount of debt does not necessarily mean they were unprofitable. I showed a net loss of ~$200M (without factoring interest which takes those losses to ~$300M). That was the problem at the time.

Here is the source for the numbers I'm using. I would imagine that it's the chart he's referencing in his testimony.

I think it is quite remarkable that under Bud Selig's watch, the league has gone from losing money to turning a good profit.

gumbyfan · February 14, 2009 12:17AM

<< To date, no one has seen proof of this allegation. >>

Oh, here's that proof again.

otwcards · February 14, 2009 3:04AM

Please keep in mind that Selig's "accounting" has always been questioned and it is quite easy to cook the books. Business owners have been doing it for years.

Based upon Selig's overall analysis of the game and the financial straights he was claiming in 2001, why were ownership groups lining up to pay 3-5 times what the teams were valued at by MLB? Also, when the league "bought back" the Expos, why did they pay nearly 4x the "market value" for the club? The books were cooked for public consumption, but those in the know knew the real profitability of the game and the franchises.

Profits existed for most in baseball, but utilizing various accounting techniques, MLB and Selig were able to present a compelling case that the league was losing money. I'm sure that using the same accounting procedures, MLB could continue to claim that they are losing money.

It is this sort of dishonesty that alienates the public and with the greed of the owners and the stonewalling of the MLBPA, we'll never really know what the ture story is. I still stick with my premise that Selig has been deceiptful with regard to his operation of the league and his intentions to "clean" up the game. To lay claim to the current success of the game seems to dismiss the fact that the game nearly went in the tank under his watch as a result of the labor unrest and strike of 1994, the marketing blunders (re: Spiderman promotion and sleeve advertising proposals) and the widespread increase in PED's which were identified as early as 1998 with the SI article regarding McGwire's stash of Andro. Selig was quoted at the 2005 hearings as first learning of the use of PED's in 2001, three years AFTER the SI article and the media outcry with regard to McGwire/Sosa and eventually Barry Bonds.

I won't even get into the fact that the Mitchell report is/was biased based upon the use of two sources (primarialy the only two that were used due to Mitchell's lack of power to subpoena) that were subsequently provided by the Feds since Mitchell couldn't get any answers using his own investigators. Nor will I detail his comments on ARod while there are another 103 names on the "annonymous" list that have yet to be leaked as well as previous public admissions of PED usage by others such as Andy Pettitte, Jason Giambi, and Brian Roberts.

lsutigers1973 · February 14, 2009 3:16AM

I have posted over 40 times since this thread was started last night.

otwcards · February 14, 2009 3:51AM

<< I have posted over 40 times since this thread was started last night. >>

Bill:

Your medal is on the way. Hopefully you'll accept it along with $50.00 in pennies...

Selig Update

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