Is PCGS overly conservative on "cleaned" coins?

Coinsponge

I am getting that feeling but lacking extensive experience I am not sure. I sent in some Peace dollars out of a BU rolls and 3 of 3 came back genuine-cleaned. These coins generally had some luster left but did not strike me as being cleaned to a point of damage. How do you tell cleaned verses almost uncirculated. Is there an easy diagnostic?

DoubleEagle59

YES!!

I think they see one or two light hairlines and automatically BB the coin for 'cleaning' (or should I say slab it as 'genuine').

zeebob

I pay a premium for PCGS graded coins in large part because they are conservative graders.

Rampage

I don't feel PCGS is overly conservative. I do, however, feel the old ANACS was overly conservative.

Connecticoin

Generally a FEW scattered hairlines will not bag a coin but will reduce the grade. Many hairlines, even if they are in a particular section of the coin (perhaps from trying to remove a spot) will get the bag.

Rampage

Just the same, I too, pay a premium for PCGS slabbed coins because they are conservative. Although, I still buy the coin and not the holder. I have always held the opinion that quality will sell a coin, not a slab.

The same coin in a PCGS, NGC, or ANACS holder all graded the same or even within a point of each other is still the same coin. Are you going to pay an additional hundred or two hundred dollars just because the coin is in one holder that says it is one grade higher? It is still the same coin. Buy the coin based on its own merrits, and not what a slab says. There are plenty of dogs in all holders.

darktone

I think PCGS should be more strict about cleaned coins.

mozeppa

yes.................poof!

MikeInFL

"Is PCGS overly conservative on "cleaned" coins?"

IMO, it depends on the series and rarity of the coin in question. For the more common coins, like most peace dollars, they are conservative. But for earlier coinage -- bust coinage and proof coinage from the 19th century, for example -- my sense is they are much more liberal.

PerryHall

<< <i>"Is PCGS overly conservative on "cleaned" coins?"

IMO, it depends on the series and rarity of the coin in question. For the more common coins, like most peace dollars, they are conservative. But for earlier coinage -- bust coinage and proof coinage from the 19th century, for example -- my sense is they are much more liberal. >>



Yup. Different rules for different coins. For famous rarities such as the 1804 silver dollar, they are extremely liberal.

Steve27

"Is PCGS overly conservative on "cleaned" coins?"

I would say they are overly conservative on what they determine to be cleaned.

IrishMike

Prebust material seems to get a pass by the TPG's if its not too obvious, while any hint of cleaning gets a bustie bagged.

crypto79

<< <i>Generally a FEW scattered hairlines will not bag a coin but will reduce the grade. Many hairlines, even if they are in a particular section of the coin (perhaps from trying to remove a spot) will get the bag. >>



Also it is not only the presence of hairlines but the pattern. Is the point most people miss. A few random hairlines happen on cir coins and sometimes MS if they were kept in bags but they appear random and in different directions. If the hairlines are all lined up and sweeping in a general direction it hints toward a wiping

RedTiger

Hard to say, there was my recent thread with images of six 1892 half dollars. I have suspicions about all six of them being messed with at some point, even though five of the six are in PCGS holders. At least two of the six sold for strong money, which might indicate that some other folks think they are original, or as original as the old Barbers tend to come.

1892 half thread link

If a person is a new collector, I would say it is the coins. Learning to spot cleaning, dipping, and other alterations generally takes some time to learn.

Hyperion

cleaned is cleaned. market grading sucks.

Kdog08

<< <i>cleaned is cleaned. market grading sucks. >>

SeaEagleCoins

My experience of late is that NOW that they have the Genuine Holder, they seem much quicker to place ANYTHING that even hints at doubt into a Genuine Holder... comparing some they are now calling cleaned to coins that they graded in the past and I am even more confused than before as to exactly what is the "Consistant PCGS Grading Standard" .... they can ban me or nuke my post if they wish, for expressing myself... but I do not see consistancy when I look at a large selection of their slabs... maybe better than the rest but still could use improvement IMHO...

In a recent submission, I sent a number of coins in, some of which I expected a Genuine Holder... two of them had BB'd last year... this time they were graded, not genuined as I expected... I can lay some of the coins side by side that just came back... and if I cover the label, I bet many, if not most, would be surprised by which one's got graded and which one's genuined...

For the record...I AM NOT slamming our hosts... right now they have another submission from me just logged in this week. PCGS is my TPG of choice yet that does not mean I think they can not improve...of course they can!!!

crypto79

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<< <i>cleaned is cleaned. market grading sucks. >>




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Your right to a point. No one really cares about a coin being cleaned; they care about two things eye appeal and value which go hand in hand. If one has to look so hard to find out if a coin has been cleaned and overall the coin has good eye appeal does it really matter? Only if the next guy comes along and wont pay top dollar for it! If cleaning a coin increased it value and eye appeal people would be discussing “how to” on this Forum, much like they did back in the day when it was like that. People like to slam the standard but it is in place till a better one comes along. There are ugly non-messed with coins and PQ cleaned coins. At the end of the day eye appeal is what matters, nothing else. And when you base a standard on something as subjective as appeal it will always be inconsistent. And remember what is PQ today may or may not be PQ tomorrow. Who knows in the future people might put the phrase PQ on remaining detail with no care of cleaning. We just don’t know. Hell toning used to be considered damage

RedTiger

<< <i>

<< <i>cleaned is cleaned. market grading sucks. >>




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I disagree. There is a large grey area. In my 1892 half thread, 60% voted Coin A as original. I thought it was messed with. It sold for strong money, so the top bidders agreed with the 60%. Most of those commenting thought Coin B was dipped, and I bought Coin B. I thought it is about average looking for that date, and the best compromise of price, originality, grade, and eye appeal of all six coins. So what I picked as the "best" coin out of five PCGS slabbed coins and one ANACS slab, got a lot of comments about being dipped, and not worth buying. I might say those hard line folks need a reality check if they are going to collect real coins instead of theoretical coins.

Those that think there is an "original" coin detector that gives 100% accurate readings are fooling themselves. On many coins it is going to be 60/40, or 80/20, only the harsh obvious cleanings are going to be 100/0 or even 95/5. If the company bags all the coins that anyone has a suspicion of being messed with, most older coins won't make the holder. I had suspicions about all five of the PCGS graded halves on my thread, even though those five coins are generally more original looking than those in NGC holders, and way ahead of raw or other holders. How hard line are collectors going to be? So hard line that they don't buy any coins? That even nicer coins from top companies are harshly criticized? Have fun, then.

Billet7

You know sometimes I think they are a bit hard on a coin, and it comes back cleaned...but at others I think they were too forgiving and they grade something I wouldn't have. Who knows the answers? Certainly not me.

rjsriv

IT IS A GAME!!!!!-- IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU KNOW.. We have all seen coins and thought "HOW DID THIS POS GET IN A HOLDER"? and then seen coins BBed and thought "WHY DIN"T THIS ONE MAKE IT"?-- those are the facts and cold hard truth.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs

<< <i>IT IS A GAME!!!!!-- IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU KNOW.. We have all seen coins and thought "HOW DID THIS POS GET IN A HOLDER"? and then seen coins BBed and thought "WHY DIN"T THIS ONE MAKE IT"?-- those are the facts and cold hard truth. >>




I agree! It's all pretty ridiculous, I think. That is exctly why I collect ONLY raw coins (so far, anyway) - because they are still COINS, not plastic investment slabs (I'll keep my investing limited to real estate, thank you). I don't spend a lot of money on any one coin, so I don't need an experts opinion of it, and I don't need the ability to sell it "sight-unseen". I am obviously not a dealer and I don't suppose I'm what anyone would call a big-time collector. Just a guy who enjoys collecting coins for fun.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I were going to buy a high-dollar coin or one that would be suspect in the raw (i.e. Trade Dollars, 1909S VDB, etc) it would be in a PCGS or NGC holder.

I know my opinions on the subject may seem a little childish or naive and a dying breed of sorts, but I'm guessing I'm still in there with a big percentage of your clientele.

golfer72

"That is exactly why I collect ONLY raw coins" I dont understand that mentality. I agree there is junk in slabs. But to me buying a slabbed coin for say $30 that cost the original owner almost that much to get it slabbed is a pretty good deal since that will be pretty close to the raw price anyway. At least its in a nice container. Having said that I of course buy the coin, not the holder. Grades are subjective and only an estimate. 64, 65 etc are many times interchangeable so paying up for the next highest grade makes little to no sense.

keets

I am getting that feeling but lacking extensive experience I am not sure. I sent in some Peace dollars out of a BU rolls and 3 of 3 came back genuine-cleaned. These coins generally had some luster left but did not strike me as being cleaned to a point of damage. How do you tell cleaned verses almost uncirculated. Is there an easy diagnostic?

you should probably start by assuming most every Morgan and Peace Dollar that is white has been dipped and also that most which exhibit brilliant centers with moderate tone/beginning to tone at the rims have also been dipped. these coins are perhaps the most abused in our hobby, being bought and sold regularly with dealer after dealer attempting to squeeze the max out of each sale by offering a white coin. i see the common dates trade in a vicious cycle: bought over the counter at $10-$12, sold wholesale at $14-$18, retailed at whatever price and then brought back after an indeterminant period. it is a pathetic circle.

it relegates most of the common dates to little more than an attractively designed bullion item.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

No, I don't consider PCGS too conservative on cleaned coins. I rely on PCGS' conservatism when I purchase the small gold coins I collect. If they changed anything I would like them to call out original undipped surfaces. When I sell PCGS graded extras, potential buyers don't have to wonder about authenticity or if a coin has been cleaned.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs

I really don't think about the cost vs what the submitter paid or anything like that. It's just that once they're in a slab, they just don't seem like coins anymore. If that's what you like, then good for you.
Most of the coins I collect, and have collected, can be safely handled without hurting their value. I had a nice collection of lettered edge CBHs which included over 55 different varieties, along with a fairly large set of large cents. It was nice to be able to pick up and actually touch (edges, of course) a coin 150 years old, and wonder who else had touched those same surfaces before me.
Right now, I'm concentrating mostly on darkside coins - primarily British farthings. I actually like them with at least a little bit of wear. Gives them character.
This way, I don't spend a lot of time trying to decipher codes on a label or pop numbers or whether or not it should have graded or just "genuined". I just enjoy the coin on it's own merits. I feel sorry for those who have lost the ability to do this.

doh

Not overly conservative at all...