need some SHTF advice

BBN · February 10, 2009 6:35AM

which is better to hold in this situation. Silver in ounce form or gold in any form?

Also, what's a good rifle and good handgun to purchase?

Cladiator · February 10, 2009 6:48AM

M4 carbine + 1911 .45 pistol

Both are uber reliable, disgustingly lethal and shoot easily attainable/common ammunition.

BBN · February 10, 2009 6:53AM

excellent advice. Sending off for my FOID card today. mad that I didn't do that a long time ago, but better now than never at all. I refuse to act like a clueless lemming anymore

I imagine smaller size silver maight be best in a shtf scenario. Is this right? Is gold best for flipping or long term hold? I'm buying up both right now.

JeremyDie1 · February 10, 2009 7:10AM

Fractional gold is your best bet. I like 10 oz and smaller sizes for silver.

cars · February 10, 2009 7:17AM

I like silver instead of gold. Hard to buy a loaf of bread with gold if it came to that. 1 oz bars are fine as long as they are from well known names, I'd stick with silvertowne, engelhard, JM, Amark ect.. 90% silver is always good as everyone recognizes it and its in small increments.

As for the firearms, I'm partial to P/O, Here is my CCW:

I also like Assault rifles. I have a few AK-47's and a AR15. Can't beat an AK for reliability. You can throw it in the sand, Wash it off in the ocean throw it in the closet and pull it out a year later and fire away. Haven't had a problem with mine yet and they're Cheap.

BBN · February 10, 2009 7:19AM

I get paid twice monthly. I've thought about getting one 1/10 ounce AGE and about 5-6 Maple Leaf silvers each pay.

PutTogether · February 10, 2009 6:20PM

<< M4 carbine + 1911 .45 pistol

Both are uber reliable, disgustingly lethal and shoot easily attainable/common ammunition. >>

While I agree every point cladiator makes for these two weapons, and I LOVE my 1911's, I just can't recommend that a 1911 .45 be someone's first/only handgun. It is THE perfect handgun for someone experienced in it's use, but in an absolute all hell broken loose terms, I would prefer someone not used to the maintenance, care, use, of firearms to have a glock or smith and wesson M&P (still in .45 caliber though)

So I will say M4 Carbine + Glock 21 or S&W M&P 45 (or a good 1911 if you are familiar with guns)

A good pump action 12 gauge shotgun is never a bad idea. The essence of reliable, the most lethal gun in existence at short range, incredibly cheap, and easy to find plentiful ammo. Think Remington 870 or Mossberg 500

As for the PM? Who knows.

Bobk · February 10, 2009 9:19PM

What everybody said. I like 90%. Everyone, I think, reconizes 90%. As for the other Mak90, AR, 870, S&W.

mhammerman · February 10, 2009 10:19PM

Well, I settled for a .25 Beretta (7 shot clip) for my bedroom gun, a Beretta 380 (widebody, 13 shot clip) for my car gun, and an AR 15 for my primary weapon (30 shot clip). If you're going to invest in some guns, invest in some education and credentials also and take the Concealed Handgun Licensing course...everyone that owns a gun should take that course as it is very informative, lets you carry a concealed weapon with a license to carry, and helps you to realize that you don't just go out and start blasting away because the penalites for screwing it up are pretty stiff.

PerryHall · February 10, 2009 11:13PM

For most non-gun enthusiasts, the best home defense weapon is a 12 guage pump shotgun with OO buckshot. Even birdshot at short range is deadly. Remington or Mossberg would be good choices.

Coll3ctor · February 10, 2009 11:16PM

<< For most non-gun enthusiasts, the best home defense weapon is a 12 guage pump shotgun with OO buckshot. Even birdshot at short range is deadly. Remington or Mossberg would be good choices. >>

The 870 is locked and loaded

Weg · February 11, 2009 12:15AM

The choice of firearm doesn't matter if the person behind it doesn't practice. Even then, practice is worthless without some help to point out things such as trigger jerk. If you can't hit the target, you better hope the noise scares target away.

streeter · February 12, 2009 3:14AM

.25 Beretta (7 shot clip) for my bedroom gun, a Beretta 380

Nice for squirrels.

a .25.............wow, you're ridin on faith with that caliber. Never bring anything less than .40 to a fight.

unknowncomic · February 12, 2009 3:24AM

Perry, for an inside the home gun a pump 12 gauge is one of the best choices . However, for inside the home , #7 bird shot is probably the best load around. It will take out your intruder but wont kill the neighbor across the way. OO and slugs have way too much penetration for home use.
As far as a .25 being too small............. any gun is better than no gun. I personally carry a .25 6 shot auto. I also have a few larger bore handguns if it gets serious and I can get to them. The .25 gives me a chance to get there at least. All this is to protect the small amount of valuables I possess.

PutTogether · February 12, 2009 3:45AM

<< The choice of firearm doesn't matter if the person behind it doesn't practice. Even then, practice is worthless without some help to point out things such as trigger jerk. If you can't hit the target, you better hope the noise scares target away. >>

This is the best post in this thread. Owning a gun doesn't mean a thing buy itself, just like buying an encyclopedia doesn't make you smart. You MUST train.

Reading helps a lot. If you purchasing a gun with the idea of protection, "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob is an absolute must read. It discusses gun and ammo/caliber choices, as well as the mental and legal issues you need to be prepared for.

In fact I recomend it so much, I'll buy you a copy if you PM me. You are a good guy and got me an awesome deal on a bust dollar - least I could do.

There is SO much urban legend/old wives tale/ misinformation about firearms that it can be difficult to sift through the BS and know what's what. Ayoob's books are just the cure.

dino2008 · February 12, 2009 4:45AM

Gary is correct a 12 gauge with mag. plug removed and some 3" mag 00 buck is your best bet .....but I'll still hang on to my 45auto and my ar15 and keep stocking up on ammo, silver, can goods, and some bottled water

BBN · February 12, 2009 5:16AM

Oh yeah, I have tons of practice with weapons. Shooting, handling, safety, etc. Been shooting a S&W .38 and a Ruger mini 14 for years. I work in the prison system so I have the opportunity to unlimited practice in shooting these at the range. Employees also have free use of the range with their own weapons and ammo after 3pm. Like the S&W pistol, but looking for something better. The mini 14 is OK, but the sights on those things always seem to need adjustment.

PutTogether · February 12, 2009 6:26AM

<< Oh yeah, I have tons of practice with weapons. Shooting, handling, safety, etc. Been shooting a S&W .38 and a Ruger mini 14 for years. I work in the prison system so I have the opportunity to unlimited practice in shooting these at the range. Employees also have free use of the range with their own weapons and ammo after 3pm. with Like the S&W pistol, but looking for something better. The mini 14 is OK, but the sights on those things always seem to need adjustment. >>

Ahhhh....... then a whole new world of options is open. For pistols in that case, a fine 1911 .45 just can't be beat. I have a dan wesson that is wonderful at the range, but a bit too tight for what i would consider a reliable weapon. I recently got a Sig GSR and have been INCREDIBLY impressed. I didn't know waht to expect from a european made 1911 pistol, but the reliability has been phenomenial. It has gone through 400 rounds of 230 gr +P JHP's with out a single hiccup. The finish is phenomenal and cleaning is a breeze. (maintanence is crucial factor in a SHTF type scenario)

I have to disagree with the poster who recomended 3" magnum buckshot in a 12gauge. A "magnum" shotshell is different than a magnum pistol or rifle cartridge in that it has more lead, not the same amount of lead at a higher velocity. At defense range, having 12 pellets (3" magnum) on target instead of 9 (standard 2 3/4" shell) is just not going to make a practical difference. The recoil from a magnum round however, is ABSOLUTELY FEROCIOUS. Easily 75-80% more recoil than a standard round. That recoil makes it harder to get a second shot. Is 25% more lead good if it makes somethingwice as hard to shoot and hit something? And yes, shotguns do miss, you do have to aim. You can just point in a rough direction and blow an entire room away.

In short, my opinion is to stick with a 2 3/4" 00 shell. 90% of the effective damage, with 50% of the recoil. (which becomes even more important if for some reason your wife or child needs to shoot the gun)

BBN · February 12, 2009 7:04AM

yeah, annually at my job we have to have eight hours of classroom training on safety and use of our wepons and another eight hours at the range. Then we have to have a certain % of accuracy to be qualified to handle these weapons(tower, court writs)

jmski52 · February 12, 2009 7:09AM

Regarding the PM question - I think that a regular buying habit is an extremely good approach. Don't break the budget, and it still begins to mount up.

Regarding the shotguns, a question of my own:

Is there any reason you wouldn't be OK with a 20 Gauge or a 14 Gauge shotgun?

DMWJR · February 12, 2009 7:55AM

<< M4 carbine + 1911 .45 pistol

Both are uber reliable, disgustingly lethal and shoot easily attainable/common ammunition. >>

+1

It doesn't get any better than these.

PerryHall · February 12, 2009 8:03AM

<< Regarding the PM question - I think that a regular buying habit is an extremely good approach. Don't break the budget, and it still begins to mount up.

Regarding the shotguns, a question of my own:

Is there any reason you wouldn't be OK with a 20 Gauge or a 14 Gauge shotgun? >>

Good luck finding shells for a 14 guage shotgun.

BBN · February 12, 2009 8:11AM

<< Regarding the PM question - I think that a regular buying habit is an extremely good approach. Don't break the budget, and it still begins to mount up.
>>

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. We're thankfully debt free so we can make some regular purchases. The wife and I both get paid twice monthly and we set aside a certain amount as cash just to stockpile and then buy one 1/10 gold coin and 5-6 SAEs or Maple leafs each pay period.

PutTogether · February 12, 2009 8:13AM

<< Regarding the PM question - I think that a regular buying habit is an extremely good approach. Don't break the budget, and it still begins to mount up.

Regarding the shotguns, a question of my own:

Is there any reason you wouldn't be OK with a 20 Gauge or a 14 Gauge shotgun? >>

I will assume you meant either 16 gauge or .410.

.410 is fairly weak (for a shotgun), and shells are extremely expensive. Also, most of them are built to be shot by kids and are uncomfortable small for most adults. 16 gauge has for the most part fallen out of favor in the US, and it is getting more and more uncommon to even see places that carry the shells

The 20 gauge however is an excellent choice. A 20 gauge semi auto is almost the perfect home defense weapon, and everyone shoudl have one. But if you can only have ONE shotgun, it should still be a 12 gauge slide action if only the incredible versatility offered.

dino2008 · February 12, 2009 9:42AM

<< Regarding the PM question - I think that a regular buying habit is an extremely good approach. Don't break the budget, and it still begins to mount up.

Regarding the shotguns, a question of my own:

Is there any reason you wouldn't be OK with a 20 Gauge or a 14 Gauge shotgun? >>

dino2008 · February 12, 2009 9:49AM

stick with the 12 gauge, easier to get shells, and I'm all for anything that makes a bigger hole. It's a matter of preference any will do the job in capable hands......hopefully none of us will ever have to find out

TexasNationals · February 12, 2009 1:09PM

If you buy an AR-15 (M-4 is just a type with a 14.5" bar. with a welded on flash sup. otherwise it requires a SBR form and $200) make sure to buy a Colt. Don't settle for anything else, I prefer the 6520. 2 disclaimers

* No one here talks about buying a sniper rife, but I believe you absolutely need one. A hunting rifle is not a sniper rifle, be ready to spend 2k plus for a decent rifle with decent optics. I have several, but my favorite is a FN A-5 w. Leupold MK-4 glass 4.5x14x50. Also several hundred rounds of Hornaday 168 gr. TAP, LEO stuff not the commercial garbage!

** There is nothing wrong with Mini-14's but the cost saving you get on the gun are quickly lost in magazines, if you buy 15 magazines, which you really should have if the SHTF, you are only going to want to buy FACTORY RUGER magazines ( If you buy anything else you are asking to leave the fire fight in a body bag) I am dead serious only to buy RUGER mags, you are going to pay $45-$55 for each mag where you can get AR-15 mags for under $15 you are spending $30-$40 per mag extra, times 15 is an extra $450 or more, so you end up paying just as much as a Colt AR-15!

Buy 12-15 Military or Colt 30 round magazines

Buy 5-6 Colt or Military 20 round magazines (great for prone shooting)

A good sling

A spare parts kit, stuff breaks

A good cleaning kit- I like bore snakes

If you get a flat top, buy a good rear sight and an EoTech Halo sight (552)

2000+ rounds of 55 gr or 62 gr FMJ ammo

As for a handgun, I prefer Glocks, and 9mm is great because if it does hit the fan, there will be plenty of 9mm available (military, LEO and civilians use it) and the ammo is very reasonable if you buy 115 gr, fmj to practice and 147 gr. hallow point for you defense. So a G-17 is a great gun. I have colt 70 series 1911's, Glock 21's and others all in .45, stick with a glock 17.

At least 6 hi-capacity factory magazines- prefer 10

Get night sights

A good holster

Spare parts

at least 1000 rounds of ammo

A good cleaning kit- I like bore snakes

As for shotguns- I like the Remington 870 or Mossberg 590, ghost ring sights, a good sling, and 250 rounds of 00 buck shot, 100 rounds of slugs, 250 rounds of #4 shot and 500 rounds of 7 1/2 or 9 shot all in 2 3/4, don't bother with 3" magnums.

There that will set you back several thousand dollars, but you better get them while you can. Don't forget a tactical vest that will hold the extra mags, tactical 5.11 makes several nice ones.

PM me with any questions.

PutTogether · February 12, 2009 2:52PM

<< If you buy an AR-15 (M-4 is just a type with a 14.5" bar. with a welded on flash sup. otherwise it requires a SBR form and $200) make sure to buy a Colt. Don't settle for anything else, I prefer the 6520. 2 disclaimers

* No one here talks about buying a sniper rife, but I believe you absolutely need one. A hunting rifle is not a sniper rifle, be ready to spend 2k plus for a decent rifle with decent optics. I have several, but my favorite is a FN A-5 w. Leupold MK-4 glass 4.5x14x50. Also several hundred rounds of Hornaday 168 gr. TAP, LEO stuff not the commercial garbage!

** There is nothing wrong with Mini-14's but the cost saving you get on the gun are quickly lost in magazines, if you buy 15 magazines, which you really should have if the SHTF, you are only going to want to buy FACTORY RUGER magazines ( If you buy anything else you are asking to leave the fire fight in a body bag) I am dead serious only to buy RUGER mags, you are going to pay $45-$55 for each mag where you can get AR-15 mags for under $15 you are spending $30-$40 per mag extra, times 15 is an extra $450 or more, so you end up paying just as much as a Colt AR-15!

Buy 12-15 Military or Colt 30 round magazines

Buy 5-6 Colt or Military 20 round magazines (great for prone shooting)

A good sling

A spare parts kit, stuff breaks

A good cleaning kit- I like bore snakes

If you get a flat top, buy a good rear sight and an EoTech Halo sight (552)

2000+ rounds of 55 gr or 62 gr FMJ ammo

As for a handgun, I prefer Glocks, and 9mm is great because if it does hit the fan, there will be plenty of 9mm available (military, LEO and civilians use it) and the ammo is very reasonable if you buy 115 gr, fmj to practice and 147 gr. hallow point for you defense. So a G-17 is a great gun. I have colt 70 series 1911's, Glock 21's and others all in .45, stick with a glock 17.

At least 6 hi-capacity factory magazines- prefer 10

Get night sights

A good holster

Spare parts

at least 1000 rounds of ammo

A good cleaning kit- I like bore snakes

As for shotguns- I like the Remington 870 or Mossberg 590, ghost ring sights, a good sling, and 250 rounds of 00 buck shot, 100 rounds of slugs, 250 rounds of #4 shot and 500 rounds of 7 1/2 or 9 shot all in 2 3/4, don't bother with 3" magnums.

There that will set you back several thousand dollars, but you better get them while you can. Don't forget a tactical vest that will hold the extra mags, tactical 5.11 makes several nice ones.

PM me with any questions.

>>

Damn dude. If you were a woman I'd ask you to marry me.

Cladiator · February 12, 2009 11:03PM

TN, You don't spend much time in California do ya?

unknowncomic · February 13, 2009 1:57AM

Clad I was about to say the same thing to TN. If you lived here in the Peoples Republic of California and owned that much firepower, you would get a late night visit from the PC Gestapo.

cladking · February 13, 2009 2:42AM

Ya' need to think longer term as well.

Consider knives, axes, flints, and a magnetized needle.

Forget about silver if things get bad and if they really get bad then you'd best
bury your gold and head for the hills.

I'm still betting against it though.

streeter · February 13, 2009 3:43AM

IMHO opinion, here in CA....the absolute best weapon is a pump shotgun. You don't have to worry asbout hitting neighbors and just the sound of a round being chambored should do the job. You can be blind and half asleep and get the job done. A good dog helps too.

TexasNationals · February 13, 2009 5:23AM

Nope, I prefer to stay out of communist countries

PerryHall · February 13, 2009 8:39AM

<< Nope, I prefer to stay out of communist countries

>>

Especially when they are bankrupt.

rpw · February 13, 2009 1:24PM

Clad I was about to say the same thing to TN. If you lived here in the Peoples Republic of California and owned that much firepower, you would get a late night visit from the PC Gestapo.

It's not that bad here in Cali, you just have to use funny looking magazines and flash hiders ... ooooops did I say flash hider? I meant muzzle brake.

TexasNationals · February 13, 2009 2:05PM

rpw- I agree and disagree. Your right, the M1A is a nice set up, flash suppressor or muzzle break really the same. 10 rd. vs. 20 rd. magazine not a big deal depending on the use. But here is where I disagree, first in CA if you want an M-14, forget about it. You can have a M1A but not the class 3 option if you want. Second the 20 rd. magazine can really be a life saver ven with the stripper clip guide on the 10 rd. magazine. Thrid, 7.62x51 is really a poor battle rifle caliber choice due to its weight, poor balistics and cost. I have an M-14 on a form 4, I have taken it overseas and if I was going to roll on a target I want the choice to go full auto if I need to and the 20 rd. magazine doesn't last long even in semi auto if you are engauging multiple targets. My M-14 doubles as a mid range sniper rifle and a light machine gun if I need it to be although the selector very rarely was turned, but when it was, it was needed. I actually have a DTA mil brake on mine to help control the burst, so yep I have a muzzle break on mine. The point is I don't want to be limited to my options if I have the money, need and proper paperwork.

Oh, and I don't even own a baynot for my M-14 so I could care less about the lug.

PutTogether · February 13, 2009 3:10PM

<< rpw- I agree and disagree. Your right, the M1A is a nice set up, flash suppressor or muzzle break really the same. 10 rd. vs. 20 rd. magazine not a big deal depending on the use. But here is where I disagree, first in CA if you want an M-14, forget about it. You can have a M1A but not the class 3 option if you want. Second the 20 rd. magazine can really be a life saver ven with the stripper clip guide on the 10 rd. magazine. Thrid, 7.62x51 is really a poor battle rifle caliber choice due to its weight, poor balistics and cost. I have an M-14 on a form 4, I have taken it overseas and if I was going to roll on a target I want the choice to go full auto if I need to and the 20 rd. magazine doesn't last long even in semi auto if you are engauging multiple targets. My M-14 doubles as a mid range sniper rifle and a light machine gun if I need it to be although the selector very rarely was turned, but when it was, it was needed. I actually have a DTA mil brake on mine to help control the burst, so yep I have a muzzle break on mine. The point is I don't want to be limited to my options if I have the money, need and proper paperwork.

Oh, and I don't even own a baynot for my M-14 so I could care less about the lug. >>

TexasNationals is awesome.

rpw · February 13, 2009 3:35PM

+1 on Class 3 M14s TXNats. I used to go over to the Machine Gun shoot in Fernley, NV to rock and roll. What I'd really like to have and have never fired (or even seen a non-demilled one) is a M1918 BAR. But can't have that here, so M1A for me for mid-range defensive use. Been shooting them (M14's and M1A) since 1972. USN always keeps the same small arms on a ship that it was commissioned with and all the ones I was on had M14s and I developed a taste for them. My long range shooter is a Savage Model 10FP-LE2 in .308. I put one of those Bell and Carlson Medalist vertical grip varmint stocks on it with a Harris S-BRM bipod and a 10x42 SuperSniper on it. don't have any photos of it but it is one sweet shooter. I'd bug out of California in a heartbeat but my wife won't leave (yet).

TexasNationals · February 13, 2009 3:38PM

Here is some of my class 3 stuff along with 2 "sniper" rifles my FN A5 w. Leupold MK-4 4.5x14x50 and my AI .300 Win Mag the Nightforce NXS scope is removed for storage as my 82A1 won't fit in the safe with optics mounted either so I use ARMS throw rings, both are threaded and use the same sound suppressor with or with out sub-sonic ammo depending on application.

Oh yeah, I have a Tasco SS on my M-14 also, great minds think alike, it has a badger ord. rail with arms mounts. Fully glass bedded, tuned bolt and trigger group. Crisp break at 2.3 pounds.

TexasNationals · February 13, 2009 4:03PM

You can see from the picture, I am a supporter of having as many factory or military magazines as you need. Buy em why you can

PutTogether · February 13, 2009 4:39PM

<< You can see from the picture, I am a supporter of having as many factory or military magazines as you need. Buy em why you can

>>

You are my new favorite person on this forum. (I was my old favorite person)

PM me if you ever have a complete 16" flattop upper that needs a new home as i brought home a new stripped lower today.

Eric

need some SHTF advice

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