<< <i>Is that a proof ??? Those appear to be hairlines, or slider marks... >>
It is a proof. I bought the whole at a shop in an old style capital plastic holder with the metal screws. It has really nice color that I could not capture. Proofs are impossible for me to shoot.
I believe so. The best way to be sure is to look at pictures of other proof 1954 halves. It shouldn't be long before you find one with identical lines, and that can only happen when the lines are on the die.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I believe so. The best way to be sure is to look at pictures of other proof 1954 halves. It shouldn't be long before you find one with identical lines, and that can only happen when the lines are on the die. >>
Really? That's interesting -- those look like hairlines or slide marks to me. Never heard of die polish lines that prominent on 54 proof Frankies -- that's a new one for me.
<< <i>Die polish lines on a proof ??? How can that be possible ??? >>
I have no idea. Someone I asked about it a long time ago said something to that effect. I've owned the set a long time and just rediscovered the hairlines when trying to photograph the set.
OK brothers, I'm going against the crowd and calling them scratches. The reason I say this is I don't see any lines in the fields. On a die the fields would be high and the devices would be low. I think if you see polish lines on the devices you would also see polish lines on the fields. Scratches however, would hit the devices first. Looks like fairly harsh slide marks to me.
From the pics they look like die polish lines to me, but I would sure like to see it up close.
Die polish lines are evident on many 1950's proofs because of the way the mint used the dies. First, a fresh set of dies normally does not show any die polish lines because they were etched in acid and the fields polished to a mirror finish. The first coins struck will have spectacular cameo contrast. But the acid etched surfaces wear rather quickly and the cameo effect gets less and less noticible until it produces brilliant proofs with no contrast. Most proofs of this era exhibit little or no cameo contrast which is one of the reasons why cameos are prized. At some point, the dies are removed from the press and reprocessed. They were often 'scrubbed' with metal brushes and re-etched in acid. The fields were repolished back to normal and the dies put back in the press. These reprocessed dies produced cameos again but now there are die polish lines evident. These polish lines can be straight as on the Franklin, or many times they are curved or circular (most often on the dimes and quarters). In any event, the die goes thru another wear cycle until it is pulled again. If the die polish lines were deep, they will show up well after the contrast becomes brilliant.
I don't know how many times a die was reprocessed - perhaps someone knows. Philly Joe sent me much of the proof data from Philadelphia from the '50's but there is no mention of reprocessing - only the total annual usage of fresh dies.
Finding deep cameo coins off of fresh dies remains one of my quests. I will always buy them regardless of whether I already have one in my collection.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
will pcgs give a high grade to an otherwise deserving proof if there are polish lines evident?
I don't think there's any policy. My impression is that the die polish will be ignored unless it imparts substantial "negative eye appeal" AND it's highly unusual for the issue. In other words, they figure that "if that's the way they come, that's the way they come".
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>So...he could get a "Proof-70" out of that, even with the polish lines? >>
I wouldn't expect a 70. But I think it's otherwise nice enough for a 68 - Those lines are extremely magnified in the 10megapixel photos & with that light. In hand, they fade away pretty nicely.
<< <i>OK brothers, I'm going against the crowd and calling them scratches. The reason I say this is I don't see any lines in the fields. On a die the fields would be high and the devices would be low. I think if you see polish lines on the devices you would also see polish lines on the fields. Scratches however, would hit the devices first. Looks like fairly harsh slide marks to me. >>
Die polish lines will appear to go under the devices on the coin. When the mint worker polishes the fields of the die, his brush does not go down into the devices.
<< <i>Thanks for all the information. One other question... will pcgs give a high grade to an otherwise deserving proof if there are polish lines evident? >>
I really think this is the same die that my coin is struck from and mine is graded NGC67. I think PCGS would probably grade mine a 66.
<< <i>Thanks for all the information. One other question... will pcgs give a high grade to an otherwise deserving proof if there are polish lines evident? >>
I have seen few 68's with significant die polish - more like 67 max. Same for the cameos - I have a 67cam Franklin with really heavy die polish. As with anything related to grade - more die polish usually means lower grade.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Meltdown
Posts: 8,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
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President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Is that a proof ??? Those appear to be hairlines, or slider marks... >>
It is a proof. I bought the whole at a shop in an old style capital plastic holder with the metal screws.
It has really nice color that I could not capture. Proofs are impossible for me to shoot.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I believe so. The best way to be sure is to look at pictures of other proof 1954 halves. It shouldn't be long before you find one with identical lines, and that can only happen when the lines are on the die.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Fortunately, that is not true.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
WOW,I would have said,NO but ,I'm not a franky guy.
Brian
<< <i>Are these Die Polish Lines?
I believe so. The best way to be sure is to look at pictures of other proof 1954 halves. It shouldn't be long before you find one with identical lines, and that can only happen when the lines are on the die. >>
Really? That's interesting -- those look like hairlines or slide marks to me. Never heard of die polish lines that prominent on 54 proof Frankies -- that's a new one for me.
<< <i>Die polish lines on a proof ??? How can that be possible ??? >>
I have no idea.
Someone I asked about it a long time ago said something to that effect.
I've owned the set a long time and just rediscovered the hairlines when trying to photograph the set.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Edit: The polish lines are much weaker on mine but it looks like a match. I can't get the lines on my coin to show up in a photo.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Edit: Funny thing, mine has almost identical peripheral toning.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
OK brothers, I'm going against the crowd and calling them scratches. The reason I say this is I don't see any lines in the fields. On a die the fields would be high and the devices would be low. I think if you see polish lines on the devices you would also see polish lines on the fields. Scratches however, would hit the devices first. Looks like fairly harsh slide marks to me.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Die polish lines on a proof ??? How can that be possible ??? >>
Hope you can see, but look on the face/neck and see the swirly die polish lines on this proof.
edited to add:
I have a 54 proof Frankie that also shows some die lines, although not as pronounced.
And a 52 as another example
-Paul
Die polish lines are evident on many 1950's proofs because of the way the mint used the dies. First, a fresh set of dies normally does not show any die polish lines because they were etched in acid and the fields polished to a mirror finish. The first coins struck will have spectacular cameo contrast. But the acid etched surfaces wear rather quickly and the cameo effect gets less and less noticible until it produces brilliant proofs with no contrast. Most proofs of this era exhibit little or no cameo contrast which is one of the reasons why cameos are prized. At some point, the dies are removed from the press and reprocessed. They were often 'scrubbed' with metal brushes and re-etched in acid. The fields were repolished back to normal and the dies put back in the press. These reprocessed dies produced cameos again but now there are die polish lines evident. These polish lines can be straight as on the Franklin, or many times they are curved or circular (most often on the dimes and quarters). In any event, the die goes thru another wear cycle until it is pulled again. If the die polish lines were deep, they will show up well after the contrast becomes brilliant.
I don't know how many times a die was reprocessed - perhaps someone knows. Philly Joe sent me much of the proof data from Philadelphia from the '50's but there is no mention of reprocessing - only the total annual usage of fresh dies.
Finding deep cameo coins off of fresh dies remains one of my quests. I will always buy them regardless of whether I already have one in my collection.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I don't think there's any policy. My impression is that the die polish will be ignored unless it imparts substantial "negative eye appeal" AND it's highly unusual for the issue. In other words, they figure that "if that's the way they come, that's the way they come".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>So...he could get a "Proof-70" out of that, even with the polish lines? >>
I wouldn't expect a 70.
But I think it's otherwise nice enough for a 68 - Those lines are extremely magnified in the 10megapixel photos & with that light.
In hand, they fade away pretty nicely.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>OK brothers, I'm going against the crowd and calling them scratches. The reason I say this is I don't see any lines in the fields. On a die the fields would be high and the devices would be low. I think if you see polish lines on the devices you would also see polish lines on the fields. Scratches however, would hit the devices first. Looks like fairly harsh slide marks to me. >>
Die polish lines will appear to go under the devices on the coin. When the mint worker polishes the fields of the die, his brush does not go down into the devices.
WAS THE COIN IN A PLASTIC CASE WHEN YOU TOOK THE PICS?
jAZZCOINS jOE
<< <i>Thanks for all the information. One other question... will pcgs give a high grade to an otherwise deserving proof if there are polish lines evident? >>
I really think this is the same die that my coin is struck from and mine is graded NGC67. I think PCGS would probably grade mine a 66.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>Thanks for all the information. One other question... will pcgs give a high grade to an otherwise deserving proof if there are polish lines evident? >>
I have seen few 68's with significant die polish - more like 67 max. Same for the cameos - I have a 67cam Franklin with really heavy die polish. As with anything related to grade - more die polish usually means lower grade.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!