Questionable color 91

VAUSAThermographer

Hello. I sent out my first ever batch of raw coins. All but 1 came back questionable color. How can I tell when buying coins if it is questionable color. Keep in mind that it is a little too late as I have purchased mid 5 figures of mostly "toned" coins. So I guess the better question is 2 part. 1 how can I tell UNquestionable color vs Questionable color before I spend 4 figures to send in many more coins that are toned. Part 2 Is a coin worth more NOT 91 "questionable color" in a airtight or being PCGS 91 Questionable color. In other words what worth is there in 90ed coins cleaned/altered/questionable color when I try to sell these.
I guess I see why toned graded coins by PCGS are so expensive, I guess few are NONQuestionable.
EASIEST way to go broke is learning the hard way

Thanks in advance.

WaterSport

First- welcome!

You are asking a question that has been debated on these forum ms for years. If you like toned coins I guess there are some here that can give you some general things to look for as far as where on the coin the toning occurs and colors that are not part of the natural process. But there is NO way to determine the standard applied by PCGS and there determination as to what is questionable color other than to say they are very very cautious in order to protect their reputation. I, like many here have resubmitted questions color designated coins only to have then slabbed and also to have them reconfirm they questionable color. I also have taken such coins and given them the back porch treatment and resubmitted them and got them in plastic. All I can say is welcome to the hobby, this is when it becomes is frustrating.

WS

VAUSAThermographer

Thanks.
Another question. If I rub MS70 solution on a coin with a qtip and rinse with water and pat dry with Tpaper to remove toning does that count as "Cleaned" and will that then be body bagged I am not trying to beat the system but to understand the system. What I am scared about is that I thought that those coins were some of my better coins.

If I opened a sealed proof and found toned coins, as has happened in the past, then should I leave them in the original sealed government plastic to show I have not added Questionable color to the coin?

everythingbut

I had submitted 2 great looking Indian Cent and 1909 VDB to PCGS and they came back as Questionable color. Just to ease my mind I had submitted the same coins to ANACS and they came back as Recolored. This leaves me to believe that when PCGS grades comes back Questionable color, it means to me that the coin has been dipped to enhance the appearance. The coins I submitted looked like they were high grade MS, but came back as XF-45 details. Good luck on trying to determine this dilemma!

lusterlover

Before anyone else says it, I'll jump in...SHOW US PICTURES. You'll get better feedback if we can see what you're questioning.

ProofRainbowRoosevelt

<< <i>How can I tell when buying coins if it is questionable color. >>



NT v's AT will never be consistant, the only advise I can give you is educate yourself. Study the type of color patterns PCGS grades as NT for your series. Try doing a quick search on the boards for NT or AT threads, there are many. If you truly believe your coin is NT, maybe give PCGS another shot. I've personally recieved a handful of rejected coins back from PCGS as questionable. I thought they were NT, so sent them in again and they passed Good luck.

You have pics??

VAUSAThermographer

Thanks for the responses.

I have wanted to send in my own coins to be graded for years. I have found it easier to purchase PCGS graded coins than it would be for me to send in. I am into what I deem "MODERN proofs" 1950 and newer, mainly 1958-1976. These sealed proof envelopes are within my budget. Luckily I went mainly 1964 and earlier, at worst the coins have melt value thinking. All my 1977 and newer have been purchased already slabbed because I am picking them up for 25% PCGS retail value. NO WAY I could make a profit off buying the coins/ grading/SHI/and selling fees. I still do not know how they do it. High volume but where is there any profit, my only thought is the dcam70s make up for the 69s, which is my favorite. Not perfect eyesight but not blind and I can't tell the difference BUT my wallet knows you can't pick up 70s at 25% PCGS value.

I Enjoy toned coins. I could not afford already slabbed toned coins so I have been picking up toners for the past 4 years. I want them slabbed but I feel that trying to sell a 91ed coin is a Scarlet Letter and recouping my coin cost alone is going to be near impossible. Do most of you take the coins out and resell them on the market. Collecting is fun but keeping my wallet fat or adding to it and having fun is MUCH BETTER!

Pictures to come.
Thanks again for helping me gain info.

To show I am not all about the $, I will tell you that I keep 2-4 1964 and newer quarters and halfs in my vehicle to give to kids who are selling lemonade in the summer. I work on houses and have had 3 heat strokes in the Marines. My body can't take the heat so I get some "water with lemon powder, usually" and the kids HOPEFULLY get an appriciation for Coin collecting and saving $ in general. I give them a quick speal on the value of saving $ and how these coins are silver and don't spend it save it for the future.

VAUSAThermographer

Lastly

How do I get my NAME off the bottom of my posts. "A little privacy PLEASE." A little late but for the future I would love 2 C my name GONE.

Thanks 4 any info. 2 help me on this issue N advance. From you know who, just look below.

Steve

Go to profile at the top of the page. Then move the curser near the bottom where signature is listed. Backspace to wipeout your name. At the bottom click "update profile". That should do it.

VAUSAThermographer

Thank you for your help.
Frustrated, sorry for prior emails, wife said I was OBVIOUSLY venting on the board, uncool, hopefully not to be repeated.
Reassessing my next batch of PCGS crossovers to take advantage of the Feb. Special, @$14.00 its hard to go too wrong, so long as I send a large enough amount to offset SHI.
This will give other newbies some comfort. I put total value at return insurance on the submission form @ roughly 1K (not what I paid){HIGH HOPES}.... came back ........ too embarassed to put actual $ but I couldn't fill my tank @ current gas prices & I DO NOT drive a big rig.
On the positive I did score a Dcam on a 75 lincoln and needed 1 for registry

Hoping to learn the art of PCGS coin grading

ajia

Frustrated, sorry for prior emails, wife said I was OBVIOUSLY venting on the board, uncool, hopefully not to be repeated.

I'd also like to you to these boards.

As far as venting on these boards about grades, get in line.....
"Questionable Color" & "Altered Surfaces" burn me up.
Aren't these experts grading the coin?
If they can't determine that is AT, then it should be NT IMO.

I have found it easier to purchase PCGS graded coins than it would be for me to send in.
Me too.
I wonder how much they're losing by having the "little guys" buy graded coins because they're afraid of getting BB......er, Genuine slabbed coins back?
This may not apply to higher priced coins, but I'm not sending in coins I can buy for less than $50, just not worth the chance.

Heck, even some of the Frankie's I sent in thinking they were MS, then coming back AU were not worth the fees.

Bochiman

<< <i>Frustrated, sorry for prior emails, wife said I was OBVIOUSLY venting on the board, uncool, hopefully not to be repeated.

I'd also like to you to these boards.

As far as venting on these boards about grades, get in line.....
"Questionable Color" & "Altered Surfaces" burn me up.
Aren't these experts grading the coin?
If they can't determine that is AT, then it should be NT IMO.
>>




I disagree and take the contrarian approach to this:
If the PCGS (NGC) experts can't determine it is NT, then it should be AT.

I am ok with that sense they are putting their reputation and money on the line. A person does NOT NEED to get a coin slabbed by them. Sure, doing so allows you to play the registry game and, most likely, to sell the coin for more $$$. But, you don't NEED to have it slabbed.

Too many times have we seen coins slabbed that have problems and are AT and people rake the slabbing company over the coals each time. Then, many of those same people complain when they tighten up the grading.

I have had a crossover rejected due to questionable color. It is quite possibly AT, though it isn't garrish. I was hoping it was NT and would cross. I'm not whining about it though (though, if it had crossed and if I had wanted to sell it, it would likely be worth 5x or more what I paid for it).

So, take the color/tone issues with a grain of salt and imagine if you were in their shoes.

VAUSAThermographer

Thanks.

I see you are also into moderns (register), you always a few ahead of me in the PCGS modern registar , congrats, you I and have quite a way to go to catch up to Emerson/Hall.
You are right about coins valued below $50.00. I might say $50.00 maybe too high. I am picking up PCGScoins at an unreal prices. PCGS .25 graded value $380.00 purchased $80.00. 20 MS66-67 1950s nickels $1.75 each 2.25 with SH. I OBVIOUSLY couldn't do that with me sending in coins. Lincolns are a different breed. They are within my sending in coins price range, still they are getting premiums to PCGS price guide (for the most part). I did get a 1981 Type 2 69 Dcam a couple hundred under list last year. My wife still freaked when she heard how much I paid for an 81 penny, my friends still kid me about working that much to make $ so I could go buy a penny. They don't get it, even when I show them the coins in the slabs. My brother has gotten into coins from losing MUCHO DINERO from stock market. He is finding out Morgans are better to get graded than to send in. All his were purchased then sent in and then came back cleaned. Now he only buys preslabbed Morgans CCs. The high cost of a already slabbed CC Morgan out weighs the lost time and $ on finding/bargaining/ then sending in and getting back genuine. Paying a couple hundred $ for a coin and coming back genuine led him to this after his first batch. Keeps the pops low, and prices high. Good for future price realization, frustrating for newbies.
I am still glad I went with PCGS over the others. When I desided to get into coins for investment I checked them all out BUT all use PCGS as price guide. That led me to believe that they are the top dog and I want to be part of the best even if I can't compete finacially with other in the PCGS registar. I get a kick out of my PCGS value vs my cost. Like finding a loose diamond in HomeDepot parking lot and finding out it is worth 4K. Happened to me. Then again I pick up pennies I find also.

VAUSAThermographer

I might say $50.00 maybe too high

too low.

VAUSAThermographer

I'm not whining about it though (though, if it had crossed and if I had wanted to sell it, it would likely be worth 5x or more what I paid for it).


Whos Whining? I am trying to legitamately find out HOW PCGS decides AT or NT and so far noone has given me a scientific/ qualified answer. Basically they deside. OK On what basis? That is all I want to know before I blow more $ on slbbing coins. Is there a PCGS guide book on AT vs NT? I have seen "Monster toned" PCGS slabbed coins only 2 years old. NT come on... I call BS on that. So if a monster toned 2 year old eagle can be NT then what is not? NO way NT monster toning occurs in 2 years without some "special help". Please someone give me a definitive answer or lead me to a book that gives it. I hate random outcomes, I need clarity on this issue. Thanks all.

Coppercolor

Other than "time" looking at coins in PCGS holders let me suggest the following:

1) Buy and watch H. Robert Campbell's DVD called How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins (2001 produced by David Lisot) this is an especially good reference for Morgan toning but the principles of air transfer toning/liquid transfer toning apply. Learn the progressions of toning layers
2) More time looking at toned coins graded by the TGP's, oh yeah I already mentioned that, but look at them closely, compare them to the ones you know have been rejected
3) Spend some time cruising the posts and archives at Toned Coin Collector's Society web page, try here Message Board
4) Consider the riskiness of collecting a series that is extremely succeptible to toning. I'm basically a toning addict, but I would be shy of collecting these Eagles because of the fact that they tone so rapidly and are easily manipulated. If they tone so rapidly and readily a couple problems come to mind a) lack or rarity and value b) the likelihood that the monster slabbed coin you buy today doesn't look so good tomorrow

I'm by NO means the toning expert around but I have paid my dues around the subject as a collector.
Jeff

VAUSAThermographer

Thanks Jeff,

I will pick up that DVD.
As for the monster toned coins. I use Ebay and a year ago there were 2 major sellers of raw toned coins. Both accuzed the other of solar oven cooking coins in sulfur envelopes to create toned coins in weeks that would normally take decades. It got so bad that they are both gone but many have replaced them doing the same thing. My worry is that I to am a toner collector and I am afraid that PCGS is going to stop grading toners due to the amount of "solar oven cooked toned coins flooding the market, so I want to get my slabbed sooner than later. If they don't stop then the other direstion I see it going is that slabbed coins that are slabbed now we be seen in the future decades as "possibly bogus" even with PCGS "passing" and the value will drop like a rock. Monster toners still are getting rediculous prices even on Ebay, but for how long when If I was unethical I could produce monster toners by the dozens a week using a chicken incubator. 105 F 90% humidity. The perfect toning machine. According to PCGS this would be NT accelerated to a 1 day equals 10 years of "normal" storage. Love toners BUT they will most likely become a dime a dozen with toner manufactures making crazy $ for no effort other than placing a coin in an accelerator.
Grew up on a farm.
We pumped out the baby chicks by the hundreds sold @ 5.00 each, now turn each chick into a $100-$700 coin from a $20.00 or less investment on the raw eagle coins and shorten the time from 60 days between batches to 7-10 days and it no wonder "monster toners" are popping up everywhere. A person could make an excellent living of nothing. Like I said I have not done this (other than an experiment) BUT I can see why an unethical person might do this exspecially when PCGS would call them NT ( no chemicals other than sulfur envelope gov't issue). EBAY is filled with them. I suspected as much 4 yr ago, so I only bought pre 1970 toners, hoping they were unmolested, but now I am seeing 2 year old coins with monster toning I know people are accelerating toning/ manufacturing toners through NT means and this will hurt the whole segment of toned coins overall. How many Bulleyes are showing up? Many place a cardboard circle in the middle of the coin before placing in toner oven and 1 week later TA DA a beautiful toned bullseye.
Goes to show that as many rules you put up someone will always try to make $ off beating the system. Now with the internet it is made easier to unload the toners for good money and it is now out of hand IMHO.

RBinTex

Simple. Don't buy colored coins raw - or at least not unless the seller will allow you to return them if PCGS bb's them.

What were you thinking spending that kind of money on raw coins anyway (especially with the additional potential problem of the originality - or lack thereof - of the color)?

VAUSAThermographer

What were you thinking spending that kind of money on raw coins anyway (especially with the additional potential problem of the originality - or lack thereof - of the color)?

That is somewhat why I started to blog here, other than learning from you al' here so I can avoid more costly mistakes. Hopefully a quick list of my experiences can help other newbies from some of my mistakes and sucesses. 1 success : Bought a 1 of 4 population on a variety type $2.00 currency for $80.00 2 weeks later #2 sold for $280.00 a month later #3 went for approx $650.00 #4 kept by original owner of bills. What is its true worth? Could be $2.00 could be much more decades from now. Bought a substantial amount of slabbed PCGS @ an average of 30% of sug. retail cost. Bought silver and gold coins poor quality @ 15% more than silver was trading @ the time of purchase. This was and still is better than I was able to do with silver bars and has more investment value than a 10 oz bar. Lastly getting the biggest back safe deposit box possible. Take pics. and then lock it up. Family memebrs are police officers and you wouldn't want you stuff gone which is what they have seen time and again. I know of kids paying for pizza with unfolded gold/ silver cert. bills and silver and gold coins when there parents were not there and the kids found the money and wanted to order pizza and paid with that. My, how upset would you be.

Newbie to coin collecting as an investment mistakes.
1. Buy non pcgs slabbed coins ( a very few exceptions, some are really nice and I plan on sending to take advantage of the PCGS crossover Feb. special) anyone can start a coin grading company and everything comes out the top of what ever PCGS says there is for that coin.
2. Buying way too many post 1964 coins, no melt "TRUE' value.
3.Buying too many toners, Ones that I found appealing to me.
4. Buying opened proofs and Mint sets. They are going to have at best ok coins, if you go this route pay melt cost only is my rule.
5.Most likely the most common newbie mistake, (my brother did n't listen until he got back his first batch, that being buying raw Morgans. I paid 10X true worth on one and that was when I got into buying slabbed PCGS at less than 30% goal to cover my mistakes. It took 3 years of bottom bidding on good coins that noone else bid on. My best day was when the olympic, Political convention, and a football game were on I cleaned house for 2 days. The best idea I had other than buying slabbed PCGS coins was buying pre64 coins and envelopes. I figure out what the "true" silver/ gold melt value is per coin and bid that. When hyperinflation hits in the next 24 months we may see 50.00 oz silver and more again. Heck @ 20 I would be sitting nicely as a loaf of bread sells for $10.00. Sorry deviated. So yes I was foolish to believe that I was finding a gem that other better knowledgable would have missed. I realize that I am not helping myself by putting this out as I am adding competing to the buying process BUT We are facing a world of Sheit and if I can help one other person keep a few or much $ in their pocket and dodge my pitfalls then hopefully I will have good Karma, and find that 68 lincoln 69DCAM.

VAUSAThermographer

Forgot MY WORST MISTAKE in beginning coin collecting was getting emotionally involved with a coin when bidding or bargaining a price. It is just an object, another object will come along that will be better and cheaper, just have patients (My buying mantra). Nothing worse than winning a large bidding war, UNLESS it really is one of say pop less than 50, @1st I was excited until a few weeks later and the next one was the "one".

scottgardener

I find it best to go into activities like coin investing and grading with the same principle as gambling--never bet more than you can afford to lose. There's a certain aspect of probability mechanics involved in coin grading--the same coin might grade MS64 on one day and MS65 the next. It's the same coin, but the label makes its sale or trade value go up or down tremendously. Toning, both natural and fake, only confounds the issue further. And, since I rather like the novelty of naturally toned coins--and equally hate obvious fakes such as enamel-painted infomercial drivel--then I'll likely run into some of the same issues.

Indeed, right now, I have two Morgans over there, waiting for grading--one slightly greenish with an orange hue and the other a more stark purple and blue. They looked real to me, but I'm crossing my fingers that I'm right.

golfer72

Just buy already slabbed coins. Let someone else do the dirty work.