Until Pete Rose is in....the hall means nothing...
DIMEMAN
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in Sports Talk
How can you not have the all time hit leader not in the HOF. The only reason he is not is because the comish Bud PeckerHead has a HO for him!
Nuff said!
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"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
<< <i> <<How can you not have the all time hit leader not in the HOF.>>
Aside from being one of the most overrated players IMO, the better question to ask is how can you induct someone who so actively bet on the game, while managing a team??? This is even worse than betting as a player as far as I'm concerned. >>
The answer is that Pete Rose won't be going into the Hall of Fame anytime soon, if ever - He knew the rules and he broke the rules - Case closed.
And I happen to like Pete Rose, especially the way he helped the Phillies back in 1980...but rules are rules.
Sure he broke the rule, but that has nothing to do with his playing ability.
And just as a side note..he bet his team to win..so he wasn't throwing games.
<< <i><<And just as a side note..he bet his team to win..so he wasn't throwing games.>>
I think even every casual baseball fan understands that. It's a question of whether they are okay with it or not. I'm not by a long shot. If you are, then that's you. It's a device issue for sure.
As for him being overrated, all people ever say about the guy is that he is the all time hits leader. It's an impressive accomplishment to be sure. But that doesn't really tell you how good he was as a baseball player. He was a superstar of much of the era that he played in but there are DOZENS of position players better than him in my opinion. People that no on hardly ever talk about that were clearly better then him. LOTS of them. >>
Better athletes? Probably.
Better players? Not many.
"lots of them" - come on now...stop being silly.
And as far a best all round player ever...............I'll go with Willie Mays and the "Mick" would have been right up there if not for injuries. But that's part of the game.
And for best team ever...............the 75-76 Reds........."THE BIG RED MACHINE"! Over 300 team batting AVG. They took the Red Sox in 75 and swep the Yankees in 76! I was a Red fan and could not believe that....sweeping the Yankees!
However you can hurt the team by doing this - for example leaving in a pitcher too long to get a few extra pitches out of him at the possible risk of injury...same with a batter or injured player putting him out there to win the game when you've got a big bet, not caring if the player permanently may hurt himself - it's the integrity of a 162 game season that Pete compromised as a manager even betting on his team to win...that has to be understood.
<< <i>Well how many is "lots" in your opinion? I guess that depends on each person's perspective. Rose is EASILY a top 100 player and perhaps even Top 50. I'm not saying the guy wasn't great. I called him a "superstar" afterall. I'm just saying that every time one gets into a discussion about who the "best" player of all time was, invariably several people will mention Rose. For even one person to utter the guy's name in such a discussion is a crime IMO. >>
I don't remember seeing Pete Rose on anybody's top 10 all time player list - After around 10 or 15 it gets a little muddled and Pete could be anywhere depending on the list but if he's even around 25 or 50 that shouldn't be called "lots were clearly better" - but I don't wish to start a long discussion on what you meant by "lots" - everyone has their opinion.
We live in a society that really doesn't want equal opportunity , but they demand equal results. You could look at any species of animals and clearly see differences that probably would not be disputed. A grey hound is always faster than most other dogs. A bassett hound , although very cute , is a couple french fries short of a happy meal , in the smarts department.
No child left behind---oh boy !!!. They have been measuring , and remeasuring for decades. With the assault on the nuclear family in full speed , being the largest and most predictable indicator , the "intellectuals ' that run our institutions of education are "SOOOOO " baffled as to why some groups of children are able to always and easily out preform others. All they need to do is to opens their minds to the very ideas that they say " must not exist ".
To some , it doesn't matter if so and so cheated , "He's my hero ". It doesn't matter it so and so juiced up , "He's my hero ". It doesn't matter that my hero broke the rules , " He's my hero".
To quote Lewis Carroll--- " They all must be winners and they all must have prizes ".
Imagine that, from so many years ago.
One thing I disagree with is having baseball items on display from players who will NOT be in the Hall because of things they did to the sport. IE, the Hall shouldn't have any items from Pete Rose, McGwire, Barry Bonds, Joe Jackson, The Rocket and similar players om display. I just don't think the Hall should have it both ways in banning players but displaying their items. However, I love the ideal that calaban7 had about a special wing for those type of players.
Brian
Charlie Hustle inspired me as a player.
So I use him in the Poker Room as a "card protector"!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Bosox1976
<< <i>One thing I disagree with is having baseball items on display from players who will NOT be in the Hall because of things they did to the sport. IE, the Hall shouldn't have any items from Pete Rose, McGwire, Barry Bonds, Joe Jackson, The Rocket and similar players om display. I just don't think the Hall should have it both ways in banning players but displaying their items. >>
Two things that are commonly overlooked.
1. In the Rules For Election By The Baseball Writers' Association Of America, it clearly states ... "5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."
2. It is called The National Baseball Hall of Fame & Museum (Emphasis added.)
As such, while Pete Rose's player's record and playing ability cannot be reasonably questioned, his integrity, sportsmanship and character can easily be questioned. Consequently, even if you ignore the perfectly valid point that bosox1976 makes, Rose could easily not be voted in. (Would you consider Pete Rose a person of high integrity, sportmanship and character?)
Additionally, the Hall of Fame is a hall of fame, but it is also a museum. The museum tells the history of major league baseball, good and bad. Consequently, items from Rose, McGwire, Bonds, Jackson and Clemens should be on display even if the individuals themselves have not/will not be inducted as members.
/s/ JackWESQ
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>I'm not sure I have ever understood the problem with betting on your own team to win. Can someone give me some insight on this?
John >>
Yes, you could overuse your pitchers...pinch hit when not doing so may work out better in the seasons long run (giving rookies a chance to hit in big situations etc). You could pull your pitchers too quickly if it looks like you're going to lose. There are a number of scenarios.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Bet on your team to win. Bet on your team to lose. It doesn't matter. The problem is that, invaribly, when you gamble and especially when you gamble enough like Pete Rose did, you will get in a "hole." And once you are in that proverbial "gambling hole", that's when the problems really begin to surface. Owe a bookie, $5,000.00, $10,000.00, $50,000.00? I'm sure he'll come up with some creative ways for you to pay off that debt; especially if you are a professional athlete, a college athlete [in basketball and perhaps football], or the manager of a major league baseball team.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Excellent point!
There is a good movie called "The Gambler" starring James Caan - it's a fictional movie but definitely written by those who understand gambling and gambling addiction, and the ending is a classic. The movie illustrates how owing a bookie money can cause corruption - Very entertaining movie in my opinion.
Bosox1976
My problem with Rose is this. He lied to us for all those years, then he came clean and said he only bet on his team to win. Isn't that like a bank robber saying that he did the crime but only took the 20 dollar bills and left the 50's and 100's. I mean come on. He had inside information about his players. Now I don't know about you but, if you are betting aren't you trying to make money. Wouldn't you take that info and use it to your advantage?
Also I think the only reason why he came clean was to try to get elected to the HOF. I read a number of times that guys like Mike Schmidt and Joe Morgan would back him for his election.
Rose was a great player but he had an addiction and let it get the best of him.
<< <i>He only bet on his team to win some of the time. Other times he did not bet. What does that tell his bookie? >>
This is what blows the whole "He only bet on his team to win" argument to shreds. The only way that argument holds any water is if he bet on his team to win in EVERY game. He could load up on lineups or on pitchers on the days he bet his team to win and rest players or not bring in that key reliever tonight because he has no money on them tonight and save him for tomorrow's game, the one he REALLY wants to bet on.
Simple really.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
I agree with that assessment -- but for a reason that nobody has yet mentioned. During the 70's, Pete Rose pretty much ended Ray Fosse's career by crashing into him on a "play at the plate" to score the winning run in extra innings of an All-Star Game. Many years after the fact, I was watching an interview with Rose where he was asked about that questionable decision in a meaningless, show-off kinda game. Even knowing that he had ended the career of an all-star caliber player, Pete Rose still said that he'd crash into the catcher if he had to do it all over again. What an a*s!!!
Pete Rose - Records and Achievements
Major League records:
Most career hits - 4,256
Most career outs - 10,328
Most career games played - 3,562
Most career at bats - 14,053
Most career singles - 3,215
Most career runs by a switch hitter - 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter - 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter - 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter - 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits - 10
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits - 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at bats - 13 (1968-1980)
Most seasons with 600 at bats - 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played - 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played - 23
Record for playing in the most winning games - 1,972
Only player in major league history to play more than 500 games at five different positions - 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)
National League records:
Most years played - 24
Most consecutive years played - 24
Most career runs - 2,165
Most career doubles - 746
Most career games with 5 or more hits - 10
Modern (post-1900) record for longest consecutive game hitting streak - 44
Modern record for most consecutive hitting streaks of 20 or more games - 7
NL MVP Award (1973)
NL Rookie of the Year Award (1963)
17 All-Star selections
Three World Series rings (1975, 1976, 1980)
World Series MVP Award (1975)
Two Gold Glove Awards (1969 and 1970, both as an outfielder)
Roberto Clemente Award (1976)
The Sporting News Player of the Year (1968)
The Sporting News Sportsman of the Year (1985)
The Sporting News Player of the Decade (1970s)
Caught betting on baseball games, while a MLB Manager!
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Simple really.
Very well put..
Pete Rose effectively banned himself from the HOF by his actions, and again by voluntarily agreeing to such ban with Giamotti, a great commissioner for the game of baseball..I, for one, am quite pleased to know that Rose will always be on the outside looking in..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dave
/s/ JackWESQ
as the rules have stated since 1909.....if you bet onbaseball you suspended 1 year...
if you bet on your team (doesnt say for or against cause there is no difference), you are banned for life....
so simple, its the most basic rule in baseball.....
Peace Out
Dean