Congrats to Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice! Our newest MLB HOFers!
yankeeno7
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in Sports Talk
Congrats to both.
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<< <i>Really? I'm shocked to hear that you wouldn't have voted for Rice. I thought all those articles you posted about why he shouldn't get in were just for our collective reading pleasure.
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.
<< <i>You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think. >>
Hah! That's funny. I'm going to steal that one.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
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I think if he had kept the BA over .300, or had played in the 1975 WS he'd have been a shoo-in (and Boston would have likely beat the Reds).
Cheers to both men. I paid to see them both play many times - and they were always worth every penny.
Raines & Blyleven should be soon.
Bosox1976
Rice could hit for both power and average, and currently only nine other HOF hitters rank ahead of him in both career home runs and batting average: Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams.
Rice is the only player in major league history to record over 200 hits while hitting 39 or more HRs for three consecutive years. He is tied for the AL record of leading the league in total bases for three straight seasons, and was one of three AL players to have three straight seasons of hitting at least 39 home runs while batting .315 or higher.
From 1975 to 1986, Rice led the AL in total games played, at bats, runs scored, hits, homers, RBIs, slugging average, total bases, extra base hits, go-ahead RBIs, multi-hit games, and outfield assists.[3] Among all major league players during that time, Rice was the leader in five of these categories (Mike Schmidt is next, having led in four).
<< <i>Wow, the HOF dumbs down with the inclusion of Jim Rice. (Sorry Bosox '76, just don't think he belongs). >>
Agree wholeheartedly. Why water the hall down.
HOF/retired was used, because final stats are not known for active guys, their career BA can go down a bit if they "HANG-ON" too long.
Barry Bonds has a same .298 BA as Jim Rice, so he is not better in both aspects, I would guess Arod and Frank Thomas are among the current fellows, and would suggest any player with such a fine blend of hitting average and hitting power, to gain a career BA better than .298, AND more than 382 HRs, also deserves entrance to baseball's HOF.
Juan Gonzalez has 434 HR and a .295 AVG. He got those 434 HR in 1,700 less at bats than Rice. His SLG% is .561 for his career. Does it make sense to quibble about those three points in batting average in this 'club'?
Ellis Burks has 352 HR and a .291 lifetime AVG....but his career OB% and career SLG% are both higher than Rice's.
Moises Alou has 332 HR and a .303 lifetime AVG...but his career OB% and career SLG% are both higher than Rice's.
Being short 30 to 50 HR from Rice is made up for in the other betterments.
Check out Edgar Martinez's 303 HR and his very large lead in BA, OB% and SLG%
Just with those guys listed above, I can make a club of 300 HR, .290 AVG, and .503 SLG% and Rice will not belong, and those future non HOFers will.
I can make a club of .300 average and .500 SLG% and Alou and Martinez will belong, and Rice won't. Alou won't make the Hall, Martinez probably won't.
You can make all sorts of clubs with guys, unfortunatley they don't tell how good they were. Remember, I can make a lot of clubs of which BOBBY Bonds and Cesar Cedeno belong to, but that Babe Ruth doesn't. That does not tell me much about the value of each of those players.
I could make many CLUBS or lists of which HOFers belong to and Rice doesn't. All I have to do is add the qualification of 400 HR and Rice will be excluded from every one.
Jaxxr, you cannot forget Rice's home park as a large causaution for his lifetime numbers. His road numbers tell the more truthful story. I understand fans not digging deeper, but not writers.
jaxxr -
I hope your right. That would make Larry Walker the first Canadian in the HOF. Heck, because Walker hits .313 for his career we can say that only FIVE players (Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial and Foxx) in the HOF have better than a .313 BA AND more than 382 HRs.
<< <i>That would make Larry Walker the first Canadian in the HOF. >>
Ferguson Jenkins (Chatham, Ontario) was elected to the Hall in 1991.
Collecting: Topps 1952-79, Bowman 1952-55, OPC 1965-71, and Pre-War White Sox cards
<< <i>I'm sure that you can adjust the numbers downward for Walker given that he played half his games in Coors Field, right? >>
This would be an absolute necessity to do that...much like it is for Rice and Fenway. The moment Fenway is not reflected in Rice's value is the moment he makes these 'clubs' or is a l'eader' for a stretch of years. Without Fenway, he doesn't have that stuff.
I wonder, how many 'clubs' can Rice make where he is only one of five members or less based on his career totals?
For example,
The 3,000 hit 500 HR club has four members...
Mays, Mantle, Murray, and Palmeiro.
The 3,000 hit, 500 HR, 19 Grand Slams clubs has only one member...
Eddie Murray
The Triple Crown club, .285 AVG, 500 HR, and 1,910 RBI has only five members....
Bonds, Murray, Foxx, Ruth, and Aaron. If you add 100 SB to that criteria, it shrinks to four, Bonds, Murray, Ruth, and Aaron.
Hey, this is a fun game, isn't it?
He did make a very important exclusive one, baseball's HOF,
you may continue to try to belittle him as often as you like, but there is nothing you are capable of doing to change that.
Since you are so interested in club type aspects,
Clubs with at least one MVP, at least one OPS+ title, or at least 3 Total base crowns, or a 40+ HR seasons, or a least just one 200 hit season, though a great hitter like Rice did it four different times, and many more "clubs", which would omit Eddie Murray from such an exclusive membership.
Here is another "Club", very tough to join
From 1975 to 1986, Rice led the AL in total games played, at bats, runs scored, hits, homers, RBIs, slugging average, total bases, extra base hits, go-ahead RBIs, multi-hit games, and outfield assists.[3] Among all major league players during that time, Rice was the leader in five of these categories (Mike Schmidt is next, having led in four).
Seeems perhaps those old and stale, yet quite viable, Rice-Murray comparisons were missing some info, favoring Rice.
The Hall had already dumbed down well before Rice made it. If anything he brings the average up a little.
Steve
If you find an exclusive club where he sits ALONE that Rice belongs to with his career totals, then I would be a little more impressed. I can make tons of clubs that Rice doesn't belong to, that many non HOFers do(as outlined above). And no, you can't use GIDP as one of the criteria as one of your clubs
All your clubs you post don't account for Fenway, so they are meaningless.
THe AL pitchers recognized this, and Rice was not feared at all by them(well by two pitchers only). THere were many hitters feared more than him, based on the thoughts of AL pitchers. So I guess his 1975-1986 runs wasn't that impressive to them. They recognized the Fenway factor, and that he was just a little above average on the road. Murray was #1 by a wide margin. And in your clubs, he is in a few exclusive ones...including the triple clown club devised above. You seem to like clubs, so there you go.
But hey, go ahead and have fun. Be happy your guy got in.
You strive for intelligent discussion, then what is your take on Aro's example of Larry Walker? Or on Juan Gonzalez? That could then shed some light on what you are seeking.
He is one of only two AL players ever to lead his league in both triples and home runs in the same season, two members, Mantle the other.
He is tied for the AL record of leading the league in total bases for three straight seasons, two members, Cobb the other.
Rice "ALONE " remains the only player ever to lead the major leagues in triples, home runs and RBIs in the same season.
Rice is "ALONE" the only player in major league history to record over 200 hits while hitting 39 or more HRs for three consecutive years.
No complete proof of things , but some very interesting seasonal greatness shown.
"what is your take on Aro's example of Larry Walker?"
Larry Walker is one of my true favorite players, I have plenty of gem mint 10 rookie cards of him,
I have not really looked very close at the numbers, he is not retired too long, and realize he is from a potentially "tainted' era for hitters, but would hope he does have enough "fame", to gain membership to that exclusice club, the HOF.
Blyleven will eventually get in, and deservedly so.
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Let's start with batting average. In the last 80 years only 7 players have hit .350 or better for 3 or more seasons in a row. Al Simmons, Joe Medwick, Joe Dimaggio, Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs and LARRY WALKER. If you want to make it .360 or better for 3 straight seasons the list is Al Simmons and LARRY WALKER.
Power. In history there are only six players that have had two or more seasons with a slugging percentage greater than .710. Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, Ted Williams, Bonds and LARRY WALKER. Further to rule out the Coors field factor only Bonds and Walker actually had higher slugging percentages in one season on the road than at home. That's right in 1997 - Walker slugged .733 ON THE ROAD.
Average + Power - There are only five HOF players in history with a higher batting average (.312) and homerun total (383) than Walker - Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial, Foxx.
Power + Speed - Walker is the only player in history with more than 380 homers, a lifetime average of over .310 and 200+ career stolen bases.
Average + Power + Defense - Walker is the only player in history with a lifetime average of over .310, with 300 lifetime homers and 7 or more gold gloves.
Edited to add: I have no doubt that the writers and/or veteran's committe will hold Coors field against Walker and simply ignore his statistics and figure they are totally dependent on Coors. They seem to ignore it in all other cases (except maybe Vern Stephens) but I doubt they will with Coors Field.
They did not account for Fenway Park with Rice but you know they will with Walker.
<< <i>jaxxr,
I just gotta ask. Is Jim Rice your father? >>
I have wondered that.
Jaxxr, I asked you to look for the clubs with his career totals.
<< <i>
<< <i>jaxxr,
I just gotta ask. Is Jim Rice your father? >>
I have wondered that.
Jaxxr, I asked you to look for the clubs with his career totals. >>
The Jim Rice threads have been on here before. Looking at his stats away from Fenway needs to be defended . I've posted his Home VS away stats in other threads . Calling his away stats , HOF worthy requires a large amount of imagination . Rice WAS a product of Fenway.
Fans and their heros are not easily swayed by the evidense. It " IS " mostly an emotional attachment.
Jim Rice is in the HOF. I need to get over it.
He is so often belittled by self-appointed expert judges of talent, who are very voluminous, and often rude posters,
In the spirit if fair play and/or open-mindedness, I figured an alternate view might be appropriate, and perhaps interesting.
Jim Rice fares very well with many HOF members in many aspects, and is worthy of reasonable discussion, but is not really an elite ballplayer, and I am quite aware of that.
Larry Walker, on the other hand, was a true favorite of mine, I can be pretty sure I might not be as objective as possible, in evaluating his particular HOF merit.
He does share being an MVP and also a 400+ total base hitter, with HOFer, Jim Rice.
<< <i>He is so often belittled by self-appointed expert judges of talent, who are very voluminous, and often rude posters,
In the spirit if fair play and/or open-mindedness, I figured an alternate view might be appropriate, and perhaps interesting.
Jaxxr, as that is directed at me and you are taking a shot at me, I guess being civil is out the door.
I do have news for you, I would be hard pressed to find people who think your analysis is interesting. In fact, it is wrought with analytical errors so big, it is beyond funny. You have looked absolutely foolish in your defense of Rice that you even scare away the true Rice fans.
With all due respect, your work is on par with that of an 11 year old kid. I am not saying that in a mean or belittling way...it is just what it is.
As for self appointing. I never self appointed myself an expert...in all modesty, I have had others make that claim about me.
If there is one certainty I do know, it is that my expertise is far beyond yours, and it completely dwarfs your famous Kingman/Wagner methods that you STILL are using.
Only You are expert enough to have compared an elite HOFer, Honus Wagner to Dave Kingman .
You, yourself, started that thread, and you inserted it into numerous other threads,
you later went on to expertly compare Pete Rose to Dave Kingman.
That can be cut and pasted to prove YOU are the one who started that comparison, if you still wont admit to your own threads and posts.
If you feel non-specific, general comments, about experts and rude posters might properly be indicative of yourself, feel free to think so. Your ego apparently, incorrectly thinks I wish, for some reason, to discuss your posting methods and/or courtesy.
And continued, repeated personally directed insults, such as me being on par with an 11 year old kid, does not enhance your percieved baseball expertise.
You are of such limited intelligence that you still cannot understand what the Kingman/Wagner method means. YOUR methods made them comparable, do you not understand this yet? I guess not. Just like your goofy methods make everything silly and worthless.
If you feel being on par with an 11 year old kid an insult, I can't help that. I am just pointing out the quality of work you put forth, and it is indeed on that par.
I don't have to perceive my expertise, I just know that it is greater than the simpleton I have been debating in the Rice-Murray debates. But then again, I guess the joke is on me since I continued to debate a knuckle dragger. LOL. Carry on. I like getting laughs out of your writings.
OH, and don't forget about the weasel moves you did. You still haven't explained that weaselness.
might be reflective of this entire 3000 + message board community, and I, or anyone else, is somehow posting for your personally.
Rice is in the HOF, reasonably comparable in many ways, to some HOFers, your remarks and expertise can not change that, another thing that you, or anyone else, can not ever change, is that fact that,
YOU, are the only person expert enough to have started a thread comparing Wagner to Kingman, then inserted it into several other threads, and then later compared Pete Rose to Dave Kingman,
you may be ashamed to admit it , or maybe you are proud to have started the thread, but it is completely 100% true. that YOU started it.
The METHODS are yours. THE METHODS of the Kingman/Wagner comparison. Methods are in bold for a reason. Do you get it?
Kingman/Wagner comparisons were made using your METHODS to show the 5th grade level of analysis you did on Rice/Murray.
Within that Rice/Murray analysis where you figured Rice the Superior player based on the silly kingman/Wagner METHODS, you also used weasel tactics to try and sneak things in to support some stalker like case you have for Rice. The weasel method is part of the overall Kingman/Wagner method you perfected on here. There are many aspects to the jaxxr Kingman/wagner method that make it unique, perhaps some may find it interesting.
Please try to be adult enough to admit you are the only originator of the Wagner-Kingman thread and the various insertions of it into other threads.
Trying to compare two HOFers, from a similar time era, who were often AS Game teammates, and often opponents in the same ballpark, is quite far removed from a Honus Wagner vs Dave Kingman one, regardless of the stats, items, or highlights used within them.
Rice is in the HOF, please try to accept that fact, and let it go.
Might we continue in a polite manner, with Larry Walker, you did ask for comments about him, of which I did give some, prior in this thread ?
Murray, though, was arguably one of the the three best players of the 1980s, and was a far better overall player than Rice when you look at park adjusted numbers and all around play and skills as a ballplayer..I think Rice may have had more standing if his career had not declined so rapidly. His last really productive season was 1986, which was only his 12th full year in the majors, and he was out of baseball three years later. Perhaps if he had continued to put up the kind numbers he was putting up in the late 70s and early 80s throughout the rest of the 1980s, his career numbers may have been that much more impressive and people may have been able to overlook his deficiencies in other areas of the game. Instead, he is really no better than a borderline HOFer, and truly did nor merit or deserve to be inducted, IMHO.
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I saw the street lamp portion posted by a smart gentlemen on another board, but how fitting for jaxxr...so I borrowed it! LOL.
That quote from Gary Carter in your sigline has to do with their attitudes and how they were there to play baseball, and how they were great teammates. LOL. True quote, but not what you were exactly looking for.
A better quote about Murray comes from Rich Dauer where he says that Murray is Rod Carew and Jim Rice combined into one
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