Who was the most feared in the 1980's...Rice, Brett, Murray, Schmidt? MLB pitchers voted, here is wh
Hoopster
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in Sports Talk
It is often said that Rice was the most feared hitter of his time. Unfortunately the lack of intentional walks do not support that. Nor do the opinions of the MLB pitchers who faced him and the other sluggers of the league.
In the Spring of 1985, the Sporting News conducted a poll of MLB pitchers and they were "asked, simply, to identify what batter they feared the most in their league."
Here are the AL results....
Name...............# of votes as most feared
Murray..............21 1/2
Brett.................7 1/2
Boggs...............6
Whitaker...........5
Carew...............5
Winfield............4
Simmons..........4
Ripken..............4
Trammell..........3
Lynn.................3
Evans...............3
SEven players tied with two votes(including Jim Rice)
16 players tied with one vote.
There is a very clear picuture on whom the most feared was, and it was Murray by a huge margin. It isn't a coincidence, as look what Murray did in Late/Close situations in his prime....
Here are Murray's Late/Close performances during his prime...
Year.......AVG.....OB%......SLG%
1982.....338.....459.........545
1983.....342.....451.........618
1984.....374.....500.........736
1985.....380.....427.........747
But where is Jim Rice?? Rice out RBI'ed Murray 345 to 331 in the three years prior to this vote. Most fans equate the RBI as best or most important, or most feared. But that isn't the case with reality.
Is it because Rice was more years removed from his best season of '78, that he was virtually completely ignored? It is possible that had a hand, but Brett was five years removed from his monster year, had some subpar years, and he was not ignored. Rod Carew was more removed than Rice, and he was not ignored either. Fred Lynn, same thing. Both of Rice's outfield mates were more feared.
Why would the pitchers give Murray all the acclaim, and basically ignore Rice who had 345 RBI the three years prior to the survey, compared to Murray's 331?? Mainly because the RBI are lying due to the park advantage Rice had, and the number of extra base runners he had to drive in. Don't trust RBI unless you know all the information surrounding them is a lesson to be learned by all!
Even in Rice's best two seasons, '78 and '79 he had only SEVEN and FOUR intentional walks in those two years. So it isn't so much that pitchers are forgetting about his best two years, but rather probably recognize the ease of which to get him out outside of Fenway.
In the two years prior to this vote, Rice received 18 intentional walks. In '78 and '79 he received 17 intentional walks. Seems he was feared the same...and remember, reputations die hard.
Here are RIce's Late/Close performance during his prime years...I stopped up to the vote. Rice's overall numbers take on a little lesser importance due to his mediocore performance in the key spots. Rice actually had his best performances in games where the margin of score was FOUR runs or greater.
Year.........AVG.........OB..........SLG
1975.......296..........337.........420
1976.......360..........393.........650
1977.......341..........432.........588
1978.......342..........403.........590
1979.......209..........270.........330
1980......214...........291.........343
1981......302...........351.........485
1982......279...........337.........500
1983......237...........314.........441
1984......182...........243........374
If a park adjustment is applied, they all sink further.
Rice simply didn't do enough to be the most feared. He wasn't even the most feared in his best season. Parker had a BETTER year than Rice in '78...and pitchers recognized this by walking him 23 times intentioanlly in 1978. RIce got seven free passes.
There isn't a bit of evidence to show that Rice was ever more feared than Murray was. His performance in their primes was never as good as Murray's in the moments where fear would be evident....late/close or with Runners on Base. The RBI are lying!
In the Spring of 1985, the Sporting News conducted a poll of MLB pitchers and they were "asked, simply, to identify what batter they feared the most in their league."
Here are the AL results....
Name...............# of votes as most feared
Murray..............21 1/2
Brett.................7 1/2
Boggs...............6
Whitaker...........5
Carew...............5
Winfield............4
Simmons..........4
Ripken..............4
Trammell..........3
Lynn.................3
Evans...............3
SEven players tied with two votes(including Jim Rice)
16 players tied with one vote.
There is a very clear picuture on whom the most feared was, and it was Murray by a huge margin. It isn't a coincidence, as look what Murray did in Late/Close situations in his prime....
Here are Murray's Late/Close performances during his prime...
Year.......AVG.....OB%......SLG%
1982.....338.....459.........545
1983.....342.....451.........618
1984.....374.....500.........736
1985.....380.....427.........747
But where is Jim Rice?? Rice out RBI'ed Murray 345 to 331 in the three years prior to this vote. Most fans equate the RBI as best or most important, or most feared. But that isn't the case with reality.
Is it because Rice was more years removed from his best season of '78, that he was virtually completely ignored? It is possible that had a hand, but Brett was five years removed from his monster year, had some subpar years, and he was not ignored. Rod Carew was more removed than Rice, and he was not ignored either. Fred Lynn, same thing. Both of Rice's outfield mates were more feared.
Why would the pitchers give Murray all the acclaim, and basically ignore Rice who had 345 RBI the three years prior to the survey, compared to Murray's 331?? Mainly because the RBI are lying due to the park advantage Rice had, and the number of extra base runners he had to drive in. Don't trust RBI unless you know all the information surrounding them is a lesson to be learned by all!
Even in Rice's best two seasons, '78 and '79 he had only SEVEN and FOUR intentional walks in those two years. So it isn't so much that pitchers are forgetting about his best two years, but rather probably recognize the ease of which to get him out outside of Fenway.
In the two years prior to this vote, Rice received 18 intentional walks. In '78 and '79 he received 17 intentional walks. Seems he was feared the same...and remember, reputations die hard.
Here are RIce's Late/Close performance during his prime years...I stopped up to the vote. Rice's overall numbers take on a little lesser importance due to his mediocore performance in the key spots. Rice actually had his best performances in games where the margin of score was FOUR runs or greater.
Year.........AVG.........OB..........SLG
1975.......296..........337.........420
1976.......360..........393.........650
1977.......341..........432.........588
1978.......342..........403.........590
1979.......209..........270.........330
1980......214...........291.........343
1981......302...........351.........485
1982......279...........337.........500
1983......237...........314.........441
1984......182...........243........374
If a park adjustment is applied, they all sink further.
Rice simply didn't do enough to be the most feared. He wasn't even the most feared in his best season. Parker had a BETTER year than Rice in '78...and pitchers recognized this by walking him 23 times intentioanlly in 1978. RIce got seven free passes.
There isn't a bit of evidence to show that Rice was ever more feared than Murray was. His performance in their primes was never as good as Murray's in the moments where fear would be evident....late/close or with Runners on Base. The RBI are lying!
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Comments
There is an NL one too. Dale Murphy was voted at the top. My post was too long as it was. I was going to add that one too. Nobody seems to read long posts(which probably explains a lot of things why debates unravel).
<< <i>Good catch.
There is an NL one too. Dale Murphy was voted at the top. My post was too long as it was. I was going to add that one too. Nobody seems to read long posts(which probably explains a lot of things why debates unravel). >>
I wouldn't mind seeing the NL results.
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NL RESULTS....
Murphy........20
Hernandez...14
J. Clark........6 1/2
Schmidt........4
Jose Cruz.....4
Madlock........3 1/2
Garvey.........3
GWynn.........3
Guerrero......3
Driessen......3
9 Players receiving two votes.
18 Players receiving one vote.
This is purely a non scientific formula, and the noticeable thing on there is that it seems that some pitchers picked the guy that gave them the most trouble. If a guy has hit .450 off of them, even though he is clearly not as good as Dale Murphy(whom they may have had success against), they chose the .450 guy.
For Schmidt's career he has an OPS of .890 in late/close situations.
For Schmidt's career he has an OPS of .916 in at bats where the run margin is four runs or greater.
For Murphy's career he has a .744 OPS in late/Close. .841 in the > than four runs.
This isn't a clutch poll though. They were asked whom they most feared. I am just adding those clutch figures to look at.
Schmidt didn't fare as high. Nonetheless, Schmidt's overall performance needs no seconding, it stands on its own merit. He is an all time great.
I am surprised that Schmidt didn't rate higher, especially since leading up to 1985 had just completed a string of five consecutive seasons during which he finished no lower than 7th in the MVP voting (winning it twice)..but I do recall at that time everyone thinking Murphy almost like the next Mantle..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The only guys on the NL only list I scratch my head on are Steve Garvey and Dan Driessen.
I am a bit surprised on Whitaker getting that money votes in the AL.
BUt I will say this!! The AL pitchers knew what they were talking about, why??
They have four or five guys on that list that have HOF merit...but have gotten extremely little respect from VOTERS and FANS. LOL, I was going to say, "who can guess who I am thinking of....but then I looked and all the others on the list and the rest ARE HOFers!!!
Ted Simmons, Whitaker, Trammell, Dewey, and Lynn! Almost ZERO respect from HOF voters, but they have performance merit, and they have appearantly peer merit too!
Dale Murphy's star burnt out too soon, and that is too bad. I wish he hadn't dropped off so fast.
IMO schmidt may be the best 3rd baseman of all time.
Too bad dale will never make the HOF. a 2x mvp.
also IMO ted simmons is one of the most overlooked players......he seems to get no HOF consideration at all. While he may not be a yogi berra....he was better than that.
Did I mention I was the most feared pitcher on our high school team.........
um...thats due to my 90+ mph fastball and very wild !!!!!! An umpire once came out and told me to stop throwing at people.....the catcher said, "believe me..he's not trying."
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<< <i>great post
IMO schmidt may be the best 3rd baseman of all time.
Too bad dale will never make the HOF. a 2x mvp.
also IMO ted simmons is one of the most overlooked players......he seems to get no HOF consideration at all. While he may not be a yogi berra....he was better than that.
Did I mention I was the most feared pitcher on our high school team.........
um...thats due to my 90+ mph fastball and very wild !!!!!! An umpire once came out and told me to stop throwing at people.....the catcher said, "believe me..he's not trying." >>
LOL - I pitched in Little League, and always had a strong right arm - I was never clocked but I could always throw harder than anybody else...unfortunately sometimes wildness was a problem...One time in a Little League game I absolutely waffled the first two batters in the game with hard fastballs...the second guy was writhing in pain for minutes...the third batter refused to step into the box, and the opposing coach told the ump that unless they took me off the mound, that he wasn't gonna allow his kids to bat...so my coach took me off the mound and put me in left field - it was mildly embarrassing I must admit.
The lists aren't scientific, they are what the MLB pitchers said. Some were fearing Carew, hence the votes.
THe notion that was Rice the most feared hitter of his time...which is often repeated by many, just isn't an accurate statement. THat has to be one of the biggest myths in baseball.
IN the AL, Brett, Carew, and Murray were all feared more than Rice, their numbers support it, the intentional walks support it, and the pitchers voices support it.
If one thing is accomplished on these boards...the next time anyone hears on the radio that Jim Rice was the most feared hitter of his time, pause and recognize the falsehood of that statement, then realize that Brett, Carew, and Murray all occupied that honor during RIce's career.
If Rice gets elected, count how many times you hear that he was the most feared hitter. Count how many times you see people post Rice's HR and RBI total from 1975-1986 and say he was the most feared hitter of that time. THen laugh, because everyone here should now know that it just isn't true.
I suspect you are correct. Saying "a" feared hitter has some merit, it is those who say "MOST" feared hitter of his time where the lunacy begins...especially when it is preceded with his RBI totals from 1975-1986.
And that's not even considering that Brett was the most personable/approachable player on that list ...
I don't think many would argue if you took Brett ahead of Murray...they are both among the very top to choose from. The problem lies when clearly inferior players like Rice are mentioned in that breath, their performances say it, and so do the AL pitchers.
I don't really want to debate your point because we've been there and done that and we both know that there is really no definite way to measure something like "fear" of a batter.
I would like to state though that this poll, while interesting, is based on pitcher's subjective opinions as you know. And even though there may be correlation between their opinions and the actual fact of the hitter's success, I think it's a departure for you to use these subjective opinions to further your case against Rice. After all, isn't the use of subjectivity what you see as the underlying problem with most of the analysis of baseball?
And one other note: while intentional walks do provide some measure or the respect a batter gets from a pitcher or manager, doesn't it say just as much about the next hitter in the lineup? Big Papi has averaged only about 12 Intentional Walks since he joined the Red Sox with Manny Ramirez hitting behind him. That seems pretty low compared to guys like Ichiro who has averaged almost 16 IBB per year from the leadoff spot in the lineup.
It is just the opinion of pitchers.
TheVon, I actually don't mind seeing Rice going to the Hall...it sure looks as if that would make a lot of people happy if he does, including yourself.
I wish you and the other Rice fans luck that the news is good for you next week
Rice! The most feared in the 80s!
That's Jerry Rice!
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