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What was this struck over?

OK, actually I have two whatzits...

I never noticed the undercoin apparent in the incuse wreath on obverse until I recently reimaged this one. It's also apparent, though more faint in the reverse legend. There's not much legible to go on so I thought I'd put it to the collective knowledge of the forum for input image

image


And then this one is really odd. The coin is AU- but looks a bit worse due to all the business on the surfaces. At first I just thought it was a clashed die - the crown is strongly visible on reverse and the 1 and parts of the wreath show on obverse. But there are also raised areas all over, most notably the dash under the U of "kreuzer". Again, there's not much left to go on... Anyone ever hear of these being struck over older types? Or could they have struck over kreuzers of other states? (Württemberg, Hessen, Frankfurt, etc used kreuzers of the same standard)

Here's a supersized image of the Bavarian. And a bandwidth-friendly size:

image

Thanks! image

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