Jaxxr, I have a Jim Rice assignment for you...
Hoopster
Posts: 1,169
in Sports Talk
Part of the Jaxxr methods are to refute valid data, such as the MLB play by play data study, and refute it by using one example to support your findings, while ignoring the other 999 that don't.
Your preference is to gloss over Jim Rice's penchant for hitting into double plays, and somehow feel that this makes no difference in his overall offensive performance.
The play by play data shows that htting into a double play is very detrimental to scoring runs. The situational batter run figures take all offensive events into account to show a players value, or HIS offensive contributions(NOT HIS TEAMMATES).
Part of your defense is that not all GIDP are bad, and sometimes can lead to a run scored...or even a GAME WINNING RUN SCORED!
Perhaps you don't realize that the Situational Batter runs gives a base runner advance credit to a player that moves a runner when he hits into a GIDP...so any instance of Rice doing this is measured already.
But I want to focus on this thing you are stuck on...driving in a game winning run with a DP.
I would like you to find how often RIce has actually done this. You don't have to guess. You can find EVERY single at bat of his in the play by play data. You dont' ahve to guess and assume like you normally do.
I already showed you the park factor effect of Fenway...even though you say you acknowledge that, but then never do when you post your 'numbers'. But that is another day.
Your preference is to gloss over Jim Rice's penchant for hitting into double plays, and somehow feel that this makes no difference in his overall offensive performance.
The play by play data shows that htting into a double play is very detrimental to scoring runs. The situational batter run figures take all offensive events into account to show a players value, or HIS offensive contributions(NOT HIS TEAMMATES).
Part of your defense is that not all GIDP are bad, and sometimes can lead to a run scored...or even a GAME WINNING RUN SCORED!
Perhaps you don't realize that the Situational Batter runs gives a base runner advance credit to a player that moves a runner when he hits into a GIDP...so any instance of Rice doing this is measured already.
But I want to focus on this thing you are stuck on...driving in a game winning run with a DP.
I would like you to find how often RIce has actually done this. You don't have to guess. You can find EVERY single at bat of his in the play by play data. You dont' ahve to guess and assume like you normally do.
I already showed you the park factor effect of Fenway...even though you say you acknowledge that, but then never do when you post your 'numbers'. But that is another day.
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Only a clown would compare Kingman to a truly elite baseballplayer like Hous Wagner. You Skin /Hoop started that thread, inserted it into other posts, constantly refresh your comparison, mention your conception often, and still continue to claim you did not write it.
In situations with Men on base, Rice has a higer BA and a better Slg. % than Murray.
In situations with Runners in scoring position, Rice has a better BA and a higher Slg. % than Murray
"Your preference is to gloss over Jim Rice's penchant for hitting into double plays,"
GIDP, like Sac bunts, Sac flys, suicide squezze plays, Etc., are outs, generally negative events, not nearly proportionaly as potentially neagative as positive events, like a RBI, a triple, Etc.
I see a prefence to gloss over 3 consecutive total base titles, an MVP award, four 200 hit seasons, a .298 carer BA, and several other positve items done by Rice as well.
I have stated many times, in many posts, I feel Rice is worthy of serious HOF consideration, and by no means is a must-be type.
He has shortcomings indeed, however his stats are comparable, or better, than Eddie Murray in sveral aspects, thus an additional justification of his consideration worth.
Ball Park factors, Leverage index, OPS +, VARP, and other items, are important and helpful in evaluation, but the biggest difference is the importance weight, one feels is proper for the particular item.
An eaxample might be, Rice 's best HR seasons were higher than Murray, does the ball park factor weigh enough to eqaulize Murray's lack of HR power ? It will depend on how you weight the values. In some cases you can take a player's best "road" stats, like Rice's total bases, and double them, if they still top Murray's best season, which they do, it is very hard to argue the park was a big factor for that particular stat.
Perhaps an intelligent conclusion might be,
some of us possibly over rate Jim Rice, some of us possibly under rate Jim Rice.
<< <i>Perhaps an intelligent conclusion might be,
some of us possibly over rate Jim Rice, some of us possibly under rate Jim Rice.
>>
I agree and that would be a perfect way to end the debate. lol
<< <i>"his Kingman/Wagner methodology of course."
Only a clown would compare Kingman to a truly elite baseballplayer like Hous Wagner. You Skin /Hoop started that thread, inserted it into other posts, constantly refresh your comparison, mention your conception often, and still continue to claim you did not write it.
LOL! You still do not get it. The Kingman/Wagner method is the Jaxxr method. You are right, only a clown would use those types of comparisons that were made with kingman/Wagner...but those are ones you used with Rice/Murray! LOL!
You keep saying that RIce's stats are comparable or better than Murray's in many aspects...that is the Jaxxr method where Kingman also betters Wagner as well in certain areas, and where your methods have Vinny Castilla dwarfing Brooks Robinson in many areas.
The totality of valid findings is what counts, the Situational batter runs, WinShares, Warp from baseballprospectus, but I guess the jaxxr method trumps all of those, LOL! Who cares about valid precise findings, we can just use the Jaxxr method and guess.
How exactly do you come to your conclusion that GIDP are not proportionally negative to positive events like a single that nets an RBI? Where do you get your information...the Jaxxr assumption mind? Do you assume this stuff, or do you actually look at the MLB play by play data to draw those conclusions? Because the play by play data finitely combs through that stuff with the situational batter runs...the ones where RIce is FAAAR from Eddie Murray.
I have to agree with you there,
your own posts, and your insertion of them into other threads indicates a pattern, also you compared Pete Rose to Kingman in a different thread, your obsession with Dave kingman is perhaps warranted, maybe you could also make a good comparison of him to Eddie Murray, it might be interesting, and certainly continue your own unique, comparisons.
Jaxxr, no need to continue to deny the Kingman/Wagner method. Nobody ever said you compared them two directly. Get over it.
You implied in a dozen or so posts, ( I wont copy/paste for the sake of brevity) that I did compare, "them two".
You and you alone, have compared Kingman with Honus Wagner, and also with Pete Rose, and perhaps others.
Might I suggest future comparisons, which could be reasonable, include Kingman- Rob Deer, and/or Wagner- Arod.
<< <i>Might I suggest future comparisons, which could be reasonable, include Kingman- Rob Deer, and/or Wagner- Arod.
Jaxxr, you forgot Rice/Chili Davis.
Did you find how many GIDP from Rice led to runs scored, or game winning runs??
Have you found the data yet? Or is your Jaxxr Kingman/Wagner method at work again?
Axtell/Hoopster/Skinpinch whichever you prefer...
Those are interesting comparisons, perhaps as interesting as the one that compares Jaxxr to one of Jerry's kids.
More power to him. I am having some fun, no need to quit. There are about 40 of his Jaxxr-ism's posts where I almost wet my pants laughing. I thought for a moment that they were just failed attempts at humor in some of his posts, but when I realized he was making a serious claim, it was even all the more hilarious. LOL!!
"Jaxxr, no need to continue to deny the Kingman/Wagner method. Nobody ever said you compared them two directly"
You are the only person who feels such players are worthy of comparison.
Yes indeed, you are correct, I never thought there was any basis for such an insane comparison,
Only YOU did, only you continue to harp on your own method, one you posted about, and the same one you inserted into several other threads, you also compared Rose to Kingamn in your similar manner.
3 out of 4 generally accepted methods of HOF rank, and Inks, agree both Murray and Rice are equally HOF worthy, thus a reasonable conparison,
Of those same ranks, ALL 4 agree Wagner is a HOFer, ALL of the 4 agree Kingman is not close to a HOFer, thus your own unique comparison.
<< <i>
BA, career, peak seasons, best single AL season,
Jaxxr, your true colors show right here in this line among your flawed lists.
Notice how in this one only, you chose to limit the Batting Average criteria to "best AL season." Hmmm, I wonder why you would do that?
Is it because you simply chose to ignore that Murray hit .330 with the Dodgers, thus eclipsing Rice's best single season average, therefore ruining one of your goofy methods?????
This is a pure weasel move! This exemplifies the Wagner/Kingman method probably better than anything else!
Don't even bother to try and fix it by saying, "we can give him that one," because it is the weasel cherry picking that gives you away.
You desire to look further into Rice/Murray, and it HAS BEEN looked further in the comprehensive methods. They all say the same thing, Murray>RIce in peak and in career. It isn't even that close. But you would rather use the Kingman/Wagner method and be a weasel to fulfill some void in your life to make yourself feel better about Jim Rice.