Who is going to the Hall(MLB) this year?
Mphilking
Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Who will be elected in the Hall of Fame this year besides Rickey Henderson?
0
Comments
I think Rickey is a lock and maybe one more gets in. I know many think Rice isn't a HOF, but I think he's a HOF based on his era and hope he gets in.
Brian
<< <i> Andre Dawson? >>
Dang, that's another guy who is so close and one of my favorites when I was younger. I guess it depends on what the writers have for breakfast that day.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Steve
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
lol Larry
"In 1939, the National Baseball Hall of Fame opened its doors. Today, with the lone induction of one Rickey Henderson, the Hall is finally complete."
/s/ JackWESQ
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
looking for PELLE LINDBERGH's psa and 1960 fleer baseball psa 8 and up
sets in progress
R.I.P. Barstow 24 April 1999 - May 15 2009
Besides, even if Rickey was a fringe candidate, which he isn't, it would be worth checking the box next to his name in sheer anticipation of his acceptance speech. "Rickey, speaking on behalf of Rickey, would like to thank everyone who made this day necessary for Rickey. ..."
Bman, I disagree with you about using the old Rice threads and just chaning the names to Lynn or Evans. Why? Because they were better than Rice, and those old threads wouldn't apply the same to them.
To put Rice/Lynn into perspective, just think of a guy producing as well as Rice offensively, AND being able to man Centerfield!
Think of Evans as being better than Rice offensively, AND playing better defense.
The strange thing about all this is that the writers are going to put in the third best outfielder from those teams, and ignore the other two.
<< <i>Bman, I disagree with you about using the old Rice threads and just chaning the names to Lynn or Evans. Why? Because they were better than Rice, and those old threads wouldn't apply the same to them. >>
Hoopster, I was only referencing that there were alot of threads already about Rice and I did put a j/k right next to it as well.
When Fred Lynn played in Boston, he was starting to become a great player. He was actually another one of my favorite players as a kid. When Lynn went to the Angels, I was able to watch a ton of his games as I was living in the Los Angeles area and he certainly was still an all star player there, but was Nowhere near the player he was in Boston. I have even read articles stating the same thing. Fenway park always was friendly to left handed hitters as well and he never hit over .300 after leaving Boston.
The context of your post is noted
Fenway helped Lynn much indeed as well!
I will say one thing, you guys have some hard core fans in Boston.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Raines deserves it, but will not get in (same for Blyleven). Rice does not deserve it, but will get in. Raines is the most deserving candidate on the ballot except for Henderson. >>
It'd be nice for Raines and Henderson to go in together
Steve
Dave Kingman > Honus Wagner
Yes, his speech would be one of a kind! BUT
we would all need an interpreter to know what the hell he was saying!!!!!!!!!! LOL
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Steve
My ballot this year will be, in order, McGwire, Hendo, Rice, and Blyleven, and do realize trhe latter two are marginal selections.
Jim Rice is always mentioned considerably, and often compared to many.
He has an outstanding career hitting average of .298, he has produced 200 hits in four separate seasons, he blasted 46 HRs one awesomwe season, and compiled over 400 total bases one year.
Some things Fred Lynn, nor Dewey Evans, nor even Eddie Murray ever did.
Rice could hit for both power and average, and at this time, only nine other HOF ballplayers rank ahead of him in both career home runs and batting average. They are: Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams.
i will interpret for rickey - from rickey to rubeanese,then nobody would ever know what he said
<< <i>Always a popular topic,
My ballot this year will be, in order, McGwire, Hendo, Rice, and Blyleven, and do realize trhe latter two are marginal selections.
Jim Rice is always mentioned considerably, and often compared to many.
He has an outstanding career hitting average of .298, he has produced 200 hits in four separate seasons, he blasted 46 HRs one awesomwe season, and compiled over 400 total bases one year.
Some things Fred Lynn, nor Dewey Evans, nor even Eddie Murray ever did.
Rice could hit for both power and average, and at this time, only nine other HOF ballplayers rank ahead of him in both career home runs and batting average. They are: Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams.
And Rices owes a big thank you to Fenway Park, a great lineup, and a shorter career(for the higher percentages) for all those 'accomplishments'....something guys like Eddie Murray, Mike Schmidt, Dave Winfield, Reggie Jackson, and Willie Stargell didn't need to make themselves look better than they actually were. Guys that were true HOF sluggers from that era.
Of course if one ignores all of that important context material, or puts inappropriate value on each offensive event, or ignores the value of certain offensive events, or completely discounts things such as GIDP, then the Jaxxr method comes up with strange conclusions like Dave Kingman being comparable to Honus Wagner...LOL!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Everyone knows YOU, and you alone, started the ridiculous comparisons between Hounus Wagner and Kingman, and another foolish one using Brooks Robinson and somebody,
You posted those into several other threads aqs well, promoting your comparisons, you are the person doing the clown-like comparisons, and are apparently so ashamed by your past posts, you want to blame someone else for forcing you to make a fool of yourself.
The BWA, the HOF electors, some 71% percent of them , felt it was reasonable to compare Jime Rice with other HOFers,
I admit he is a marginal candidiate, but certainly worthy of reasonable, rational, and civil discussion, while comparing him to other HOFers or potential ones.
In no way will any normal person with even a partially open mind, fail to understand there may be alternate evaluations, but no one "normal" will feel Honus Wagner should be compared to Dave Kingman. as YOU personally and quite often, did.
Jaxxr, I can't believe you don't understand this by now. No, you didn't directly compare Wagner and Kingman, but your method of comparing Rice to Murray and how you simply ignored all the pertinent info, or applied inapproriate value to events is the jaxxr method...the same one that allows Kingman to compare to Wagner USING YOUR METHODOLOGY.
Comparing Wagner to Kingman is silly, just as stating Rice was as good as Murray is silly. They are slightly differnt levels of silliness, but silly nonetheless.
I say again, if one ignores all of the important context material, or puts inappropriate value on each offensive event, or ignores the value of certain offensive events, or completely discounts things such as GIDP, then the Jaxxr method comes up with strange conclusions like Dave Kingman being comparable to Honus Wagner...
Appearantly you still believe in your Wagner/Kingman method, because again you posted and hailed Rice's 400 Total Base season, and his career%'s. So your method is still alive and well. LOL!!!!!!!
Actually I stated a fact, an impressive hitting achievement, and the correct number is 406, Rice is the last man to get 400+ total bases ina single season, pre roids.
I merely made a condensed, quick, short, list, of Rice's more notqable contibutions to baseball, and made no reference to YOU.
You are rightfully correct to be ashamed to have compared Wagner to Kingman, but to somehow still use a thought process that causes you do think that , because many individuals, including a vast majority of the BWA, the actual HOF selectors, do feel Jim Rice is worthy of HOF condiseration, and has many more league leading triple crown stat seasons than some, like Eddie Murray, can somehow equate to your personal unique level of "silly-ness" via comparison, is absurd.
Your methods are in full force! To completely discount the park factor is the same reason why your method puts Vinny Castilla on par with Brooks Robinson...LOL!!!
Those same reasons...along with the great lineup...are what gives Rice those nice triple crown stats. Even second graders understand this, yet it somehow escapes you! LOL!
<< <i><we would all need an interpreter to know what the hell he was saying!!!!!!!!!! LOL>
i will interpret for rickey - from rickey to rubeanese,then nobody would ever know what he said
OMG Randy ... if we could get just Ricky and you in the same room ... on a closed circuit TV ... we could sell it on Pay TV!!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
perhaps I was too harsh in calling your inaccurate qoutes actual lies, possibly you have convinced yourself that you really did not post those threads, maybe you have a spirit or an inner being doing your posts and writing for you. Possibly you truly feel Honus Wagner or Brooks Robinson are worthy of seroius comparisons with inferior players, however despite your personal thought process or personal responsibility for your own posts and comparisons,......
.... there really is no Santa Claus, nor any method, from anyone, in the real world, who thinks there is a perfect 100% absolutely correct way to evaluate baseball players.
A listsing of facts, or records, or league leading performances, or MVP awards, should not be percieved by anyone as a complete system of evaluation, or any particular "method", merely a brief list of noteworthy items, perhaps useful in an open-minded reflecftion of overall imapct and contributuiions to baseball history.
Have a Happy New Year.
Those comparisons are indeed a result of YOUR methods.
You don't take into account any park factor, or teammate factor, or length of career factor, when you post those RIce numbers. YOUR same method puts Vinny Castilla ahead of Brooks RObinson offensively. Those indeed are your methods.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You mean he isn't already in!!!!!!! DISGUSTING!!
"or teammate factor"
I must confess, I do not know the specific calculation method for the positive effect of the Skin/Hoop, or rather teammate factor.
My math skills are reasonable, so with the right numbers I could copy your teammate factor percentage calcualtions, so as to enhance my baseball evaluation techniques.
Please be so kind as to give the numerical equivilants or geometrical figures to use in factoring in fellows like, Cal Ripken, Johnny Lowenstein, Ken Singleton, Brady Anderson, Al Bumbry, and even Freddy Lynn, a Murray teammate for a few years, Of course that's just the Balttimore franchise, Steady Eddie pluuged along with the Dodgers, the Indians, the Mets, and the Angles, if I'm not overlooking a squad.
It will be fun determing a precise numerical effect for so many different guys, I wonder, is a 200 hit season is influenced a little, slightly, or a lot on your teramates. Do your teammates affect your Triples as much as your HRs ?
And to think, I merely presented a brief list of a few items for the sake of a quick overall impression.
Your teammates have the effect on the RBI and runs scored totals you covet so much. That is part of the reason why it is flawed to use RBI total. You never seem to get that.
Not to mention the effect of the park.
In numerous, many numerous, other threads, Ballpark factor was discussed., it does have some effect.
RBI and Runs scored are a valid part of basebsll, I dont overvalue them, and understand they are somewhat realted to teammates, and have pointed out numerous times Rice has a better BA and Slg % with both , Men on base, and with Runners in scoring position, than Murray.
The initial spirit of this thread was who will get in the HOF, I made a brief listing of some qualification per JIm Rice.
My points were not an elaborate, detail filled comparison, nor inclusive of every possible effect known to mankind.
Odd perhaps, you make no comment whatsoever, regarding the other 3 players I felt qualified ? Jim Rice, though quite the popular fellow, should not garner all the discussion, all the time.
Here we go again....
Jaxxr, Hoopster is trying to convey a concept to you, nothing more. Maybe this example will help:
Sandy Koufax got 4 ERA titles while pitching at Dodger Stadium.
However, Koufax had an advantage pitching in Dodger Stadium. It is pitcher friendly. When we take the ball park into account and not let it weigh disproportionately in his stats, we have a stat called ERA+.
ERA+ takes ball parks into account. Koufax won the ERA+ title only once. You see how ball parks make some players look better than they really are? This is the situation with Jim Rice too.
Not everyone does so much better in their home ball park to skew their stats. Some players are better balanced. Don Mattingly has won the OPS title once. When we take the ball park factor into account, he has won the OPS+ TWO times.
I know there is no official ERA+ or OPS+ titles, but it is a valid statistical comparison that is more legit than batting average, homeruns or RBIs.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Valid points indeed,
An elaborate discussion as to th extent and cause and specific details, of ball park factors could ensue, there are many variables to consider and rank. Perhaps a separate thread would be interesting.
A quick note on OPS +,
that composite stat includes OBP, which is also a composite, a batter with a great proportion of walks and HBP, will seem simialr to one with many more base hits, yet have an identical OPS numbers.
The composition of the several stats used must be taken into consideration. Rice for example had many more base hits per AB than Murray, Murray made more walks, both have nearly identical OPS +, yet Rice's composition shows he would be much more likely to drive in a run.
If you understood that ballpark factor had an effect, you would not still be posting Rice's numbers while completely ignoring tha effect.
You still do not understand WHY Rice's career percentages are going to be higher in some of those areas...
1)He played a shorter career. You still cannot comprehend this. All you have to do is lineup their top seasons in each of those areas you say Rice beat Murray in. Do this for all their seasons. You will see that Murray's best beats RIce's best, and so forth all the way down to their last, where RIce was no longer a vialbe MLB player, while Murray still was.
2) The ballpark facotor are not being accounted fro with SLG% wiht men on, etc... ONce both of those aspects are accounted for Rice does not beat Murray in those categories. In fact, in the men on hitting, Murray will dwarf Rice. The Situational Batter Runs shows that quite clearly. Or do you prefer the Jaxxr method to explain it?
There was a special thread about the details of Fenway park and Oakland. You are the only one who coulnd't understand it, and you are STILL using that Yankee stadium analogy...and that was dealt with in that thread. SO no, a special thread won't help...possibly a brain transplant will.
Rice's career BA w/ men on is .305, Murray .300
Rices' career SLG w/ men on is .509, Murray .504
Once Fenway is facotred in, Rice no longer holds that very slim advantage.
Once career length is factored in, Rice is beaten handily in those figures.
Regardless of any changes in the raw numbers into adjusted ones, it still shows that such a comparison between similar players like Rice and Murray is quite reasonable and valid.
Go aheaed and apply whatever park factor you deem appropriate, and it changes who is better there, and no longer makes your Superior claim valid.
Please also account for the length of careers...for the love of god, that is one of the reasons why your Castilla/Brooks method is flawed, you need to account for career lengths. Or are you going to do the "last two years were similar" comment," LMAO !!!!!
Also, for the love of all that is worthy, why don't you post their OB% in the men on base situations?
Murray .379
Rice .....359
Add park factor and career lenght and the gap is quite wide.
You don't think Yaz, Dewey, or Pudge are worthy of RBI opps??? Or that the extra at bat given to the lineup is worthy?
Do you realize that with a righty on the mound, that if Rice takes a walk with a man on second that they actually have a BETTER chance to score more runs with Yaz coming up...as opposed to Rice whailing away at all costs? No you don't, because you will disagree with the millions of play by play data by finding one or two instances where that may not be the case...and ignore the other 998(the Jaxxr method).
By the way, he is welcome to his opnion...it just isn't a very informed one.
"Also, for the love of all that is worthy, why don't you post their OB% in the men on base situations?"
For whatever one may deem it worth, with or without the endearing emotion of true love,
I have NOT posted every single stat or item available, possible, nor any in depth or detailed comparison of the two similar players, Rice and Murray, I made a somewhat short and fairly clear response to the initial post, and shall remind you of what this post is supposed to be about.
The initial spirit of this thread was who will get in the HOF, I made a brief listing of some qualifications per Jim Rice.
My points were not an elaborate, detail filled comparison, nor inclusive of every possible effect known to mankind.
Odd perhaps, you make no comment whatsoever, regarding the other 3 players I felt qualified ? Jim Rice, though quite the popular fellow, should not garner all the discussion, all the time.
McGwire:
Performance on the field dictates that he belongs with great ease. Obviously his candidacy is muddled with the whole steroid controversy. Often mistaken for a one dimensional player, but was also excellent at getting on base...even pre steroids. Often mistaken for Dave Kingman, yet the comparison is not valid.
Henderson:
An All time great. No elaboration needed.
Blyleven:
SHould have been in years ago. Often mistaken as a guy who wasn't dominant and was just a compiler. This is not true. He was dominant, but only his W/L record didn't show it. The non HOF w/l record has kept him out of the hall due to writer ignorance.
Rice:
Was definately an icon of his era. He has the fame part, but too many guys similar to him or better as a player, who are not in themselves or were never even remotely considered...two of which roamed the same outfield as him, and another who was his NL counterpart and was everything he was(George Foster), who also even had stuff Rice didn't; two WS titles. I don't mind Rice being elected as a representative of that very competitive era, but it just isn't fair to all the other guys mentioned who are completely neglected. If he gets voted in, he should take photos of Lynn and Evans with him to the podium and state that he only belongs if these guys and a few other did too.
Smokey Joe Wood:
Has only 400 more IP than Dan Quisenberry and they both have an ERA+ of 146. Problem for Joe is that in his era, the other aces had mind boggling IP, and he cracked 200 IP only twice in his career. Another 1,500 innings of a similar ERA+, then he has some merit
Kind of interestring you included Smokey Joe Wood for whatever reason,
He is not listed on the upcoming regular ballot, nor is still eligible for any further Vet consideration, I believe.
He is a very tough, and somewhat unique case to judge, quite the short career, though a truly brilliant one, a borderline fellow indeed,
I assume your mention reflects a relatively postive feeling towards his HOF merit ?.