If the market is being "controlled" ...

MoneyLA

For those of you who maintain that the market is being controlled, why do you fight it? If it is being controlled, it appears that the "controllers" are doing a good job of it. So, why don't you join them in their "game" and profit by it? If you have this knowledge of a "controlled market" you should be profiting from it, true?"

Please advise the next step of their "control" so I can join in.

thanks.

roadrunner

The market is well- managed, but not controlled imo. There are days you can beat them, and days you don't. In any case, we'll see back in the game when gold goes flying above $1050. Nothing to discuss until then.......

FWIW, even Greenspan told congress in recorded testimony in 1998 that the FED and Treasury were ready and willing to lease/sell gold into the market in whatever quantities were needed to manage the dollar. It doesn't get any clearer than that. This is exactly what the PPT/EST was established for in 1987/1988.

roadrunner

secondrepublic

The market is not being controlled. PMs are to the financial markets like a fly buzzing around an elephant. The Feds could most likely care less about what happens with gold (which, incidentally, more than tripled in price from 2000 -- hardly evidence of some plot to keep the price down). The Feds are concerned with the stock market, to a much larger extent, and they have been actively working the system with very little to show for it. Gold is also bought and sold around the world, to a large degree in India of all places, and supply/demand decisions are made largely independent of the US.

mhammerman

"PMs are to the financial markets like a fly buzzing around an elephant...The Feds are concerned with the stock market, to a much larger extent, and they have been actively working the system with very little to show for it."

I agree.

percyb

<< <i>For those of you who maintain that the market is being controlled, why do you fight it? If it is being controlled, it appears that the "controllers" are doing a good job of it. So, why don't you join them in their "game" and profit by it? If you have this knowledge of a "controlled market" you should be profiting from it, true?"

Please advise the next step of their "control" so I can join in.

thanks. >>



I too am interested in joining the crowd that controls and manipulates the "market." Tell me who does it, and tell me how it's done so I too can profit from it.

MoneyLA

If I recall, several of you have said here that there is some sort of conspiracy to control and keep down gold prices. If that is not "controlling the market" then what is?

ttown

Best listen to your heart and not let your brain try to explain it's way out of this mess. The goverment controls all finicials including gold when needed. Even with trillions of dollars they have more to worry about than just PM's. They must spend it on bank and private company bailouts as well as 43 states going broke. Mark my word 09 will be a banner year for PM's in 08 they threw everything they had at the problem letting banks come into the PM's markets to create a strong dollar while making more bailout money at the little guys expense. Here's a nice write-up that summarizes the fiats folks logic. We've seen then put the brakes on PM's for years now even in this bull run in the old days they mainly used the CB's to announce the selling of gold. But of course it's top secret where the metals are sold and it usually ends up in another CB in Asia, the Middle East, or South America. With all the buying craze it seems the IMF and CB's have been slient and aren't interested in selling much gold at these prices lately since the paper market is trying to control the price now.

Extraordinary bullish outlook for gold

COINB0Y

Alan, I think this says it best:

The percentage fall in the gold price was far less than other markets saw, whether equities or commodities. Investors capable of paying in full for their investments took to the sidelines waiting for the investor carnage to stop. It seems that they are cautiously entering certain markets now, including the gold market. Consequently in a thin, sold out market, it takes little to make prices move a long way. The rise from $690 to the present level of $878 took place in two stages, as bad news for the global economy brought gold investors back to the market place. It has pulled back since breaking out and could sink as low as the very low $800, without disturbing this pattern. Alongside this there is a perceptible change of mood in the market. The trauma of 2008 with its systemic failures and disillusion is calming. Investors are not staring into the abyss quite as much, even though there could still be good reason to do so still! No, it seems that because the expectation is for more bad news, attitudes are changing from despair to acceptance, to the search for solutions.

LINKY

Now look at this spooky chart:

SPOOKY-OOKEY

roadrunner

We've seen then put the brakes on PM's for years now even in this bull run in the old days they mainly used the CB's to announce the selling of gold. But of course it's top secret where the metals are sold and it usually ends up in another CB in Asia, the Middle East, or South America. With all the buying craze it seems the IMF and CB's have been slient and aren't interested in selling much gold at these prices lately since the paper market is trying to control the price now.

Forget the brakes, the PPT didn't allow gold to get started for the first several years in 2001-2003. A daily pog move upwards was limited to $6 max for many, many months while gold started to rise into the mid-$300's. It was uncanny. It could fall $10-$20 with no problem but a daily rise above $6 was just not "allowed." Gold might have reached a $10-12 gain, but would be summarily beat down by the end of the day to under $6.

The fact that the gold Comex for years now has closed lower 90% of the time speaks volume of the daily manipulations. Imagine the Dow closing lower 90% of the time from 1995-2000 yet still multiplying in price several fold in that period. It would make no sense. Yet gold did just that. And we won't even go into the daily 9 am or 10 am beat downs that are straight down and follow the pattern of no normal supply and demand market. When the Dow started behaving like this in financial stocks in 2008, the SEC stepped in and placed limits on short selling. Such "manipulation" could not be allowed. Such a thing would never be considered for PM's.

During the 1990's and up until a year or so ago, the Central Banks have leased/sold thousands of tons of gold into the market while claiming it had no purpose/value anymore. So best to sell it off to employ the money in more useful endeavors (like stocks or bonds for example). It makes no sense that selling off 30-50% of the CB supply was done to "free up" unproductive assets. The British sold off 50% of their reserves at the bottom of the gold market at around $260/oz. Was this $2 BILL or so that important to their economy (or ours) that it just had to be sold off? Isn't their economy over 1000 times larger than that? And if you factor in all the CB gold sales over 10-15 years, what does that trifle $1 TRILL or so do for the world's economy? While having little effect on the economy itself over so many years, it can have a large impact on national currencies, and the USD in particular since gold inversely mirrors the dollar index. This is a case of a tiny market that is easier to move, having an effect on a much larger market that is much harder to move on its own. Why mess with the larger market that is much more closely watched and regulated when you can play with one of the "unregulated" smaller drive gears that has a very significant effect?

Gata has put together a lot of material on this subject that is readily available. But reading it is probably a lot harder to do than just believing what the SEC and CFTC keep telling us that they are on the ball (a la Bernie Made(off) with the $$). Trust us.

Controlled daily? Probably not. But well-managed on a daily to weekly basis? Certainly. No other market behaves like this day in and day out over many years. No doubt the FED and Treasury expected gold to move up over the past 7 years but their job was to manage the price increases to be palatable and to keep the sheeple guessing as to when the game was finally over for good. The "FED" managed market has given signals at many price increments that the gold game is over. Many here are convinced that pog will never break $1000 again and that such a shaky market is not the place to safely put ones money (stay in bonds, treasuries, FRN's, and stocks). That shows that the FED/Treasury management is working and the sheeple are behaving as ordered. A lower dollar has always been in the cards since 2001 and it will go much lower from here. It's up to the FED to manage those expectations while giving the markets an appearance of orderly but slow change. A movement in gold from $650 to $1200 in 2008 would not have been to their liking. At that point of the BSC failure it was necessary to start coming up with new strategies such as well-coordinated, mulit-national containment schemes on the weekends where they could get an early start in Asia and then keep pounding away in London and NY. TPTB know well that gold will double or triple from here, but they need to manage how it gets there rather than letting the market decide to do it in exponential bumps of its choosing that would invite panic and question whether the Wizard really has control of Oz.

roadrunner

57loaded

if you had wanted to play the "24 hour paper gold cycle" you cold have done okay, i think, i never cared enough or had the time to try and learn/understand it

i agree with secondrepublic that the gold paper trades amount to that fly around an elephant, (and the physical even less) yet IMHO it does reflect something in the workings of the market psychology for that day.

if there would ever be a stampede for anything traded on the market...what would it be???, most of us have an idea......

MoneyLA

I have this opinion which makes me think that all of the gold "sales" and "leases" and "manipulations" are meaningless. And that opinion is this: we are OFF the gold standard, and the general public doesn't CARE about a gold standard either.

without a belief in the gold standard, what do these sales, leases, manipulations mean? probably nothing, I think.

correct me? thanks.

roadrunner

I have this opinion which makes me think that all of the gold "sales" and "leases" and "manipulations" are meaningless. And that opinion is this: we are OFF the gold standard, and the general public doesn't CARE about a gold standard either. without a belief in the gold standard, what do these sales, leases, manipulations mean? probably nothing, I think.

You don't have to believe in a gold standard to know that gold is money, and tracks like money, and displays a chart as the inverse of the USdollar index over the past 7 years. That means gold is money. The central banks lease gold to help control currency fluctuations. The central banks desire more gold if they could get it. If one could talk to central bankers in private they would be the first to admit that gold is real money and paper fiat is not. The CB's and bullion banks value the stuff so much that both entities count the same ounces of gold as assets even if it was leased out or sold. Funny that! We may be "off" a formal gold standard, but the relationship of pog to fiat easily supports that the link is still there, even if not on a formal document. If all the leases, sales, and manipulations are so "meaningless," then why do the bankers guard this information as tightly as the remaining inventory in Fort Knox? Easier to send a man to Mars today than to get that kind of information released to the public domain. Heck, the TARP personnel won't even release where the money has been going to specifically charged govt regulators. We have a long ways to go wrt to transparency and integrity.

If Americans found out tomorrow that all 8100 tons of our remaining gold stocks were gone and had been leased out or sold over the last 10-15 years in clandestine efforts to support the US Dollar and "hide" inflation I wonder what effects that would have on the day's price? The fact that such information is not shared with the public in any way, or with regulators for that matter, is a clear sign that the govt feels "they can't handle the truth."

roadrunner

bumanchu

<< <i>I have this opinion which makes me think that all of the gold "sales" and "leases" and "manipulations" are meaningless. And that opinion is this: we are OFF the gold standard, and the general public doesn't CARE about a gold standard either.

without a belief in the gold standard, what do these sales, leases, manipulations mean? probably nothing, I think.

correct me? thanks. >>



They are not meaningless, however you are powerless in your ability to affect them.

What financial specie will not vaporize if all were to go kaput? What has stood the test of time? What routinely fails over time?

These are the questions that you should ponder and allow to motivate you into action.

Got gold?

Got credit default swaps?

Got collateralized debt instruments?

Got DOW?

Got (any paper you want to name)?

Maybe gold being controlled is evidence in itself that it is the only thing the TPTB can control because it is the only "thing" that has inherent value and is worthy of being controlled and will not "vaporize"..................

again.......got gold?

roadrunner

Gold behaves exactly as it did prior to removing the gold standard in 1971. No difference in how it is used or valued by the Central Banks.

What is different is that the public has been weened off thinking that gold is money, even if the central bankers haven't. Most are content to invest their life savings into paper-related investments. And without the gold link, the CBers can print or create as much paper or electronic money as they desire. That's the primary difference between 1971 and 2008. But the importance or value of gold is unchanged even if the American public's perception has been slowly changed to accept pure fiat as money. The people have shifted into believing in a paper standard while the CBers still believe in real assets whether they be gold, land, real estate, etc. The paper fiat is their way of getting their hands on all the real assets. And you can't get your hands on all the real assets without manipulating all the important markets.

roadrunner

streeter

I do not think of gold as money. I think of it as insurance. When interest rates are at about ZERO---it is free insurance.

possibly I could have just stopped at the first four words in the preceeding sentence.

roadrunner

3 charted examples of PPT gold takedowns

The charted examples offered up by Degraaf are pretty basic. Big drops where the seller cares nothing about getting a good price for their shares, but only about dropping the price quickly. The only way to possibly "gain" from such drops is to buy more on the takedown. However whatever shares you did hold have probably lost more total value. Normally functioning markets don't show behavior like this week after week, and year after year.

Degraaf also offers some current charting signals for the technicians.

roadrunner

COINB0Y

In fact, I expect a drop tonight so I am heading off to cash in some Eagles, right now.

MoneyLA

roadrunner wrote: "That means gold is money."

Well, last night while playing poker I asked the 9 guys at my table (yes, we play a ten handed game, and the dealer doesnt talk) if there was a nuclear war would they want gold for barter?

everyone of them said "you can't eat gold. I would want food."

I posted this just as an "aside."

cheers.

roadrunner

MoneyLA wrote: "You can't eat gold."

Well, last night while playing Texas hold 'em with 4 central banker buddy friends of mine I asked the guys at my table if there was a nuclear war would they accept FRN's for barter?

Every one of them said "I can't eat FRN's, but I can burn 'em for warmth or kindling. But, I would prefer food or as a substitute, gold."

As an aside: burning a pound of FRN's will release about 8,000 BTU's of energy (assuming they are dry).

Well, we're all glad the MoneyLA is back to looking at "reasonable" outcomes of the current economic cycle...nuclear winter. In that case Geiger counters, lead shields, and other gamma ray basics might be right up there with the guns, ammo, food and shelter.

roadrunner

MoneyLA

roadrunner, you make me laugh.

by the way, I played the 7PM tournament at the Bicycle Casino in Bell Gardens (near LA).

Who were your four central banker buddies?

LOL

COINB0Y

How did you do, Alan?

MoneyLA

I was the bubble boy.... again. Darn it. About 180 players. Three tables were paid, and I busted out in 28th place.

Then tonight (Monday) I was bubble boy again. This time a field of 131 players, two table paid, and I busted out in 20th place.

tonight's bust was a heartbreaker. I had pocket tens in late position and went all in. I was called by A-J who had only 300 more chips than I had. he caught an ace on the river. Darn Darn Darn.

Frankly, I have better luck in cash games. The problem with tournaments is that blinds and antes go up and you are forced to "play" even with less than deluxe hands.

Now to the precious metals... it is surprising how many players use silver rounds and silver one ounce and five ouncers for their "card protectors." some of the players have engraved five ouncers with their names on them and poker illustrations such as the suits. It's always fun to look and talk about what they have and where they got them. Most are bought online at special web sites catering to poker players.

roadrunner

Rob Kirby - analysis of physical gold supplied during 2008

Rob poses the question as to who is supplying the gold market with the extra 150% of physical gold beyond the normal 100% that the mines and scrap businesses already return each year (approx 2500 tonnes/yr). His answer: Central Banks. Question: what happens to all fiat schemes when bankers run out of gold to sell into the markets? At the current rate of 3700 tonnes per year how much longer will CB stores last? They started with 33,000 tonnes and have been leasing out thousands of tons per year ever since. Miller estimated in 2001 that 13,000 of those tons were already sold/leased.

Analysis by Joe Miller in 2001 - links to Gata

In 2001 Miller estimated 7 years until the CB bank stores ran out. That takes us right up until today. Miller also predicted back in 2001 much higher gold prices in future years.

roadrunner

jmski52

For those of you who maintain that the market is being controlled, why do you fight it?

The central banks "intervene" in the markets with regularity by their own admission. Usually that intervention is in support of the dollar or other currencies, which is essentially the same thing as an attack on the price of gold. It's no stretch to make the assumption that gold selling is part of that same concerted effort.

If it is being controlled, it appears that the "controllers" are doing a good job of it. So, why don't you join them in their "game" and profit by it?

In my experience, that would entail short-term trading in a market that is being whip-sawed. In order to win at short-term trading, you have to be very good, especially after taxes. I'm not anywhere near that good. I'd rather be on the side of the fundamentals as I see them. Right now, that means "anything but dollars."

If you have this knowledge of a "controlled market" you should be profiting from it, true?"

Only if you know the timing, and that isn't generally published in advance, eh?

Please advise the next step of their "control" so I can join in.

You are a participant in this thread, and with all of the other contributors here, you should be privy to enough insight to know what you should be doing.

DeepCoin

Is there an inference in this thread that we have moved the US stockpile of gold out of Ft Knox in support of the central banks?

roadrunner

No inference intended as to where the "Fort Knox" gold currently resides. It could all still be physically in Fort Knox. The real question is whose name is on the gold? Central Banks can play a game of swaps, sales, and leases where the gold stays put, but ownership changes hands electronically. Who knows how much of FK gold belongs to the Germans, British, Japanese, Chinese, etc.? It has been suggested that any gold the US wanted to sell secretly, they could do so by having say the Bundesbank or BOE sell their gold into the market, while the US would credit them the same amount of the US balance sheet. With creative IMF-suggested accounting, both the seller and the buyer of said gold list physical ownership on their balance sheet. Therefore there is no way for outside eyes to figure out who technically owns the gold (ie which so-called owner is purely imaginery). Obviously US corporations are not allowed to conduct their businesses in such a creative manner. Imagine if the gold miners could still count the gold they have mined and sold...just like the Central and Bullion banks do.

Gilligan's Island - TARP economics

roadrunner