I'd like to get information and coins from anyone more knowledgeable than I on these varieties. I know just enough to understand they are important varieties.
RT >>
Here's a guide I wrote that will show the differences in the two types.Link
The FBL situation: Like most grading standards in most series', there has been a shift in these standards. The book will address the current standards at PCGS and NGC.
Paul - I've given both services' my opinion on several occasions. I think there needs to be petition addressing this issue and signed by enough collectors to get their attention.
<< <i>Paul - I've given both services' my opinion on several occasions. I think there needs to be petition addressing this issue and signed by enough collectors to get their attention. >>
and hey , let me derail this post for a second : in the 1991 book u wrote that the heavy cameo 1965 s.m.s penny had a pop. estimate of 100-200 pieces .......... i looked for years and finally shelled out 600$ for a nice PCGS MS65 CAM with dynamite mirrors - Would you say the 100 - 200 estimate is still valid ??
They can be very hard to detect. The best one's (hardest to detect) are coins that already have appreciable cameo contrast, and just have touches added to the device to give it that 3% extra frost needed to get the next designation up. The grading services have gotten very good at detecting these as well.
One of the purposes of photographing as many cameo Franklin die varieties as possible for the first cameo book was to help the novice detect cameos, because most of the time, a superb cameo Franklin would match up with one of the cameo die varieties in the book.
<< <i>........I think Bushmaster should head up the Petition for Universal FBL Standards >>
<< <i>Enhanced Cameo's
They can be very hard to detect. The best one's (hardest to detect) are coins that already have appreciable cameo contrast, and just have touches added to the device to give it that 3% extra frost needed to get the next designation up. The grading services have gotten very good at detecting these as well.
One of the purposes of photographing as many cameo Franklin die varieties as possible for the first cameo book was to help the novice detect cameos, because most of the time, a superb cameo Franklin would match up with one of the cameo die varieties in the book.
Have some of these (enhanced cameos) gotten past the tpg?
Yes. I haven't seen any lately, but occasionally a coin will turn up graded many years ago that got through. When I do see them they are usually in auctions - for obvious reasons. I have notified the services when they appear. But it does make a good case for coin conservation, as the conservation process will ferret out any fakes.
<< <i>Have some of these (enhanced cameos) gotten past the tpg?
Yes. I haven't seen any lately, but occasionally a coin will turn up graded many years ago that got through. When I do see them they are usually in auctions - for obvious reasons. I have notified the services when they appear. But it does make a good case for coin conservation, as the conservation process will ferret out any fakes.
RT >>
What is the best way to detect these? Do you have any pics of any?
<<<< <<Are you going to include the type 1 and 2 '58 and '59 business strikes?>>
How about 1959 type 3? It used to be famous. Or is that term passe, since it is really a type 1/ type 2 doubled die. >>
I forgot about that one. I think it's a type 2/type 1 though.>>
You are quite correct sir, My apologies. In my often too imprecise way, I was merely pointing out that type 1 and 2 were involved without going into the details of manufacturing. My expert tells me that indeed the final hubbing of this doubled die was a type 2 while the previous hubbings were type 1.
<<In 1958 and 1959, at the Philly mint, some reverse dies that were originally intended for the striking of Proofs, were used to strike an
unknown number of business strikes. >>
Anybody have any thoughts as to how many of these were made? The late Bill Edwards, who did a lot of research im this area, estimated 20 % of the 1958 and 35 % of the 1959 Philly production was type 2. In my limited experience, I have seen very few type 2's, especially very few 1958 ones. The 1959 mint sets were apt to have a type 2 half in them as well as a type B quarter.
As far as type 2s, the 1959 seems to be very common. It may be closer to 50%. The 1958 is a lot tougher. I spent a year looking at every PCGS and NGC '58 I came across before I found one. I think it may be less than 20% but I've heard from a few collectors that 20% is a pretty accurate number. Here's a '58 type 2 I have, in fact the person I bought it from told me it came from Tomaska.
Edit: Sorry for the bad pic, I don't have the best camera.
Also, all the 1958 mint sets contained type 1s. So just about all the ones graded ms66 are going to be type 1.
<<As far as type 2s, the 1959 seems to be very common. It may be closer to 50%. The 1958 is a lot tougher. I spent a year looking at every PCGS and NGC '58 I came across before I found one. I think it may be less than 20% but I've heard from a few collectors that 20% is a pretty accurate number.>>
I have been looking through some of my old notes and found the most amazing old references. Spadone's 1975 variety guide says the 1959 type 1 is unknown and calls the doubled die type 3. Spadone does say more research is needed.
A reprint of a Coin World Collector's Clearinghouse page but without a date says the same. No 1959 type 1 is known and we have a type 3.
With that wide separation in the dot to the left of E, I don't understand why it took so long to realize it was a tye 2/1. I don't know why they could not find a 1959 type 1 unless they were only looking in mint sets.
Is this Franklin/Kennedy book a part of the Bowers series?
He's not writing it, so I don't see how it could be. According to Whitman Q. David might be making a contribution though. RT
Whitman’s “Guide Book” series is the same thing as the “Bowers Series.” The books have similar color covers and binding (green-gold/red/green-gold spine colors) and a number at the base of the spine indicating the volume’s sequence in the series. I assume the Franklin/Kennedy half book is part of that series and not a free standing volume.
Comments
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>re 1958 t1 and t2 die varieties
I should.
I'd like to get information and coins from anyone more knowledgeable than I on these varieties. I know just enough to understand they are important varieties.
RT >>
Here's a guide I wrote that will show the differences in the two types.Link
Franklin-Lover's Forum
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
The FBL situation: Like most grading standards in most series', there has been a shift in these standards. The book will address the current standards at PCGS and NGC.
RT
Paul - I've given both services' my opinion on several occasions. I think there needs to be petition addressing this issue and signed by enough collectors to get their attention.
<< <i>I think you did an outstanding job on that guide fklnlvr!
Thanks, I appreciate the complement.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>Paul - I've given both services' my opinion on several occasions. I think there needs to be petition addressing this issue and signed by enough collectors to get their attention. >>
- That is a most excellent idea ;
Those would all be fantastic Bushmaster, including the white 66 BB 1955.
Superb contribution. Thank you.
RT
Paul -
Please go to page 55 in the cameo book, the fifth paragraph, bold type. Especially the second sentence in that paragraph in particular.
After you have read it, let's talk about the estimates! I always love talking coins with fellow enthusiasts when I get a chance.
Rick
Let me rephrase my question then ;
Do you think the 1965 SMS penny in PCGS CAMEO , MS65 and better , is a truly rare coin and do you think it will prove to be a tremendous investment ?
The short answer is:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are there enough exclamation points?
Enhanced Cameo's
They can be very hard to detect. The best one's (hardest to detect) are coins that already have appreciable cameo contrast, and just have touches added to the device to give it that 3% extra frost needed to get the next designation up. The grading services have gotten very good at detecting these as well.
One of the purposes of photographing as many cameo Franklin die varieties as possible for the first cameo book was to help the novice detect cameos, because most of the time, a superb cameo Franklin would match up with one of the cameo die varieties in the book.
Rick
<< <i>........I think Bushmaster should head up the Petition for Universal FBL Standards
>>
<< <i>Enhanced Cameo's
They can be very hard to detect. The best one's (hardest to detect) are coins that already have appreciable cameo contrast, and just have touches added to the device to give it that 3% extra frost needed to get the next designation up. The grading services have gotten very good at detecting these as well.
One of the purposes of photographing as many cameo Franklin die varieties as possible for the first cameo book was to help the novice detect cameos, because most of the time, a superb cameo Franklin would match up with one of the cameo die varieties in the book.
Rick >>
Have some of these gotten past the TPG?
Franklin-Lover's Forum
Have some of these (enhanced cameos) gotten past the tpg?
Yes. I haven't seen any lately, but occasionally a coin will turn up graded many years ago that got through. When I do see them they are usually in auctions - for obvious reasons. I have notified the services when they appear. But it does make a good case for coin conservation, as the conservation process will ferret out any fakes.
RT
<< <i>Have some of these (enhanced cameos) gotten past the tpg?
Yes. I haven't seen any lately, but occasionally a coin will turn up graded many years ago that got through. When I do see them they are usually in auctions - for obvious reasons. I have notified the services when they appear. But it does make a good case for coin conservation, as the conservation process will ferret out any fakes.
RT >>
What is the best way to detect these? Do you have any pics of any?
Franklin-Lover's Forum
Pics of fake cameos -
I don't have any pics. There are a couple I know of on some auction site websites. I cannot divulge which coins and which sites for obvious reasons.
RT
How about 1959 type 3? It used to be famous. Or is that term passe, since it is really a type 1/ type 2 doubled die. >>
I forgot about that one. I think it's a type 2/type 1 though.>>
You are quite correct sir, My apologies. In my often too imprecise way, I was merely pointing out that type 1 and 2 were involved without going into the details of manufacturing. My expert tells me that indeed the final hubbing of this doubled die was a type 2 while the previous hubbings were type 1.
unknown number of business strikes. >>
Anybody have any thoughts as to how many of these were made? The late Bill Edwards, who did a lot of research im this area, estimated 20 % of the 1958 and 35 % of the 1959 Philly production was type 2. In my limited experience, I have seen very few type 2's, especially very few 1958 ones. The 1959 mint sets were apt to have a type 2 half in them as well as a type B quarter.
edited to delete redundant "were"
Edit: Sorry for the bad pic, I don't have the best camera.
Also, all the 1958 mint sets contained type 1s. So just about all the ones graded ms66 are going to be type 1.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>What is the best way to detect these? Do you have any pics of any? >>
Russ, NCNE
Russ -
Nice fake cameo pics!
Perhaps you can provide some for the book?
Rick
Russ, NCNE
Maybe you can put a group together to ship to us for photography?
Rick
Tom -
great to hear from you! Will you be at FUN?
Yes, go Bears. Let's watch that potent Midwest offense explode! 1.5 yards and a cloud of dust! 2 yard screen pass......
john
John -
count me in at FUN, as long as there is no scheduling conflict for me.
Rick
hey - if you see this punk at a coin show , p.m. me right away
he stole all my franklins and pushed my face down into the snow .......
I can't see one having more appeal
Paul P. -
That is a stunning 1954-S. Do you own it?
RT
But when I emailed his "boys" about this specific piece - they were not sure ! ?
he stole all my franklins and pushed my face down into the snow ...
That dude knows his Frankies
i would be interested in that 1954-S.
Is this Franklin/Kennedy book a part of the Bowers series?
He's not writing it, so I don't see how it could be. According to Whitman Q. David might be making a contribution though.
RT
<< <i>i would be interested in that 1954-S. >>
i will see if i can turn up any leads 4 u !
<< <i>
hey - if you see this punk at a coin show , p.m. me right away
he stole all my franklins and pushed my face down into the snow ....... >>
Who is this?
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>
<< <i>
hey - if you see this punk at a coin show , p.m. me right away
he stole all my franklins and pushed my face down into the snow ....... >>
Who is this? >>
He is a guru of Franklins and he is a Baaaaaaddd Maaaaaannn!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
hey - if you see this punk at a coin show , p.m. me right away
he stole all my franklins and pushed my face down into the snow ....... >>
Who is this? >>
He is a guru of Franklins and he is a Baaaaaaddd Maaaaaannn! >>
That is Supercarcoins! Booted and straight-jacketed!
edit: And if you want a piece of him Paul, you'll have to get in line. John Wooten wants to speak with him up close and personal too!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
edit: And if you want a piece of him Paul, you'll have to get in line. John Wooten wants to speak with him up close and personal too! >>
Is John back dealing franklins again? I haven't talked to him in ages...
john
Could anyone confirm he is still with us ?
I have been looking through some of my old notes and found the most amazing old references.
Spadone's 1975 variety guide says the 1959 type 1 is unknown and calls the doubled die type 3. Spadone does say more research is needed.
A reprint of a Coin World Collector's Clearinghouse page but without a date says the same. No 1959 type 1 is known and we have a type 3.
With that wide separation in the dot to the left of E, I don't understand why it took so long to realize it was a tye 2/1. I don't know why they could not find a 1959 type 1 unless they were only looking in mint sets.
And I hope it put's all this FBL hoopla to rest
the highest graded pieces are not always the most colorful -
many Rainbow MS66 examples would blow the doors off alot of MS67 pieces
He's not writing it, so I don't see how it could be. According to Whitman Q. David might be making a contribution though.
RT
Whitman’s “Guide Book” series is the same thing as the “Bowers Series.” The books have similar color covers and binding (green-gold/red/green-gold spine colors) and a number at the base of the spine indicating the volume’s sequence in the series. I assume the Franklin/Kennedy half book is part of that series and not a free standing volume.