Dock is missed. Everyone knows the acid story, but there is another that is about as good.
The Pirates and the Reds had a pretty good rivalry in the mid seventies. The Pirates won the World Series at the beginning and end of the decafde, but the Reds won everything in between.
I'm sure others can fill in the details. Ellis believed one of his batters was intentionally beaned in the first game of a late-season series against the Reds. He vowed to bean every batter in the Reds lineup in his start during that series. He made a valiant attempt and hit two or three, but manager Danny Murtaugh pulled him before he killed someone. I don't think he got Johnny Bench.
Ellis said he never pitched a game without being on greenies. He also said that he never touched drugs again after his MLB career. I think he was a drug and alcohol counselor at a California correctional facility.
Collector of 1976 Topps baseball for some stupid reason. Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason. My Pirates Collection
<< <i>Dock is missed. Everyone knows the acid story, but there is another that is about as good.
The Pirates and the Reds had a pretty good rivalry in the mid seventies. The Pirates won the World Series at the beginning and end of the decafde, but the Reds won everything in between.
I'm sure others can fill in the details. Ellis believed one of his batters was intentionally beaned in the first game of a late-season series against the Reds. He vowed to bean every batter in the Reds lineup in his start during that series. He made a valiant attempt and hit two or three, but manager Danny Murtaugh pulled him before he killed someone. I don't think he got Johnny Bench.
Ellis said he never pitched a game without being on greenies. He also said that he never touched drugs again after his MLB career. I think he was a drug and alcohol counselor at a California correctional facility. >>
If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Those Pirates teams had some issues. Dale Berra, Rod Scurry, Dave Parker, Dock Ellis and others all had documented drug issues.
Many, many baseball players in that era had issues, too. One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
Dock gaves us some thrills and he made some mistakes. He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion.
I love that Dock Ellis story. Here is how the Baseball Reliquary tells it:
Perhaps Ellis’ most startling act occurred on May 1, 1974, when he tied a major league record by hitting three batters in a row. In spring training that year, Ellis sensed the Pirates had lost the aggressiveness that drove them to three straight division titles from 1970 to 1972. Furthermore, the team now seemed intimidated by Cincinnati’s "Big Red Machine." "Cincinnati will bull**** with us and kick our ass and laugh at us," Ellis said. "They’re the only team that talk about us like a dog." Ellis single-handedly decided to break the Pirates out of their emotional slump, announcing that "We gonna get down. We gonna do the do. I’m going to hit these mother****ers." True to his word, in the first inning of the first regular-season game he pitched against the Reds, Ellis hit leadoff batter Pete Rose in the ribs, then plunked Joe Morgan in the kidney, and loaded the bases by hitting Dan Driessen in the back. Tony Perez, batting cleanup, dodged a succession of Ellis’ pitches to walk and force in a run. The next hitter was Johnny Bench. "I tried to deck him twice," Ellis recalled. "I threw at his jaw, and he moved. I threw at the back of his head, and he moved." At this point, Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh removed Ellis from the game. But his strategy worked: the Pirates snapped out of their lethargy to win a division title in 1974, while the Reds failed to win their division for the first time in three years.
boy it hasn't been a good week with all these deaths, sad for this time of year.
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set. >>
Many players were notorious for being ready, willing and able to bean an opponent. Gibson and Drysdale most especially. No one ever suggested they should be in jail. Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds, but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them.
My point is that Ellis was willing to state his intentions while the likes of Gibson, Drysdale, Pedro Martinez and others just went out and did it. I find it hard to believe that you would suggest that Ellis should've been encarcerated for such actions that were an accepted part of the game.
Thanks for the kind words on the Mexicans. Still trying to build a complete set in straight PSA 8 to go with the raw sets I've already completed.
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set. >>
Many players were notorious for being ready, willing and able to bean an opponent. Gibson and Drysdale most especially. No one ever suggested they should be in jail. Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds, but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them.
My point is that Ellis was willing to state his intentions while the likes of Gibson, Drysdale, Pedro Martinez and others just went out and did it. I find it hard to believe that you would suggest that Ellis should've been encarcerated for such actions that were an accepted part of the game.
Thanks for the kind words on the Mexicans. Still trying to build a complete set in straight PSA 8 to go with the raw sets I've already completed. >>
Thanks for getting back. My beef is not with you.
You say " Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds , but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them. "
Up above is a link , where said he was aiming for the jaw then tried to hit him in the head. This is even modified history as I remember his interview a few days later, defient , saying he would have done even worse if given a chance. If I could quote accurately here and prove it, I would. If the justification for his actions were used by any other class of people, it would be considered a hate-crime. Please read the article above ,change a few names around , then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.
I've heard it said " To be angry but sin not". Life has never been fair, nor will it ever be fair. I am not one who believes that the end justifies the means. I simply do not understand how this type of behaviour is glorified on one hand and vilified on the other. It should be the same.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
I guess the simplistic explanation would be that sports is akin to war. I've often heard a blind wrath and hatred when war is discussed. "Kill them all" is a common mantra. While I will not equate baseball and beanings with the true life and death struggles of war, there are some parallels.
The Reds pitchers had beaned quite a few Pirates and Ellis took the initiative to retalliate. The same was true a few years back when Soriano and Jeter were knocked out by the Red Sox in the same game and the Yankees attempted to retalliate. This has been the norm in baseball for years and while Ellis' statements were bold and similar statements have recently resulted in suspension, the comments at the time and in a different era were not the same as they are today.
Could serious injury have occured had Ellis beaned a player in the jaw? Certainly! Look at Tony Conigliaro or Paul Blair. But many players of that generation had the same approach. It was the norm. It was accepted regardless of how the prima donas of today's game want to treat it. Can you imagine Manny Ramirez batting against Bob Gibson? How far over the plate would he hang? How quickly would he be dropped if he showed up Gibson by standing at the plate admiring a homerun? How many ribs would Gibson break on the next at bat? How loud would Manny scream and how far would he make it to the mound before Gibson came in to meet him?
Today's game is not the same game and I think it wrong to hold Ellis to today's standards. It is all about context and the context of how and when Ellis said what he said are far different than today.
Comments
<< <i>No need to erase it. We will let you slide this one time. >>
Thanks Bill,
I knew someone would grant me a pardon, especially a few days before Christmas
PoppaJ
#1 soul brother.
j
RIP GURU
The Pirates and the Reds had a pretty good rivalry in the mid seventies. The Pirates won the World Series at the beginning and end of the decafde, but the Reds won everything in between.
I'm sure others can fill in the details. Ellis believed one of his batters was intentionally beaned in the first game of a late-season series against the Reds. He vowed to bean every batter in the Reds lineup in his start during that series. He made a valiant attempt and hit two or three, but manager Danny Murtaugh pulled him before he killed someone. I don't think he got Johnny Bench.
Ellis said he never pitched a game without being on greenies. He also said that he never touched drugs again after his MLB career. I think he was a drug and alcohol counselor at a California correctional facility.
Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason.
My Pirates Collection
<< <i>Dock is missed. Everyone knows the acid story, but there is another that is about as good.
The Pirates and the Reds had a pretty good rivalry in the mid seventies. The Pirates won the World Series at the beginning and end of the decafde, but the Reds won everything in between.
I'm sure others can fill in the details. Ellis believed one of his batters was intentionally beaned in the first game of a late-season series against the Reds. He vowed to bean every batter in the Reds lineup in his start during that series. He made a valiant attempt and hit two or three, but manager Danny Murtaugh pulled him before he killed someone. I don't think he got Johnny Bench.
Ellis said he never pitched a game without being on greenies. He also said that he never touched drugs again after his MLB career. I think he was a drug and alcohol counselor at a California correctional facility. >>
If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY.
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Those Pirates teams had some issues. Dale Berra, Rod Scurry, Dave Parker, Dock Ellis and others all had documented drug issues.
Many, many baseball players in that era had issues, too. One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
Dock gaves us some thrills and he made some mistakes. He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion.
I love that Dock Ellis story. Here is how the Baseball Reliquary tells it:
Perhaps Ellis’ most startling act occurred on May 1, 1974, when he tied a major league record by hitting three batters in a row. In spring training that year, Ellis sensed the Pirates had lost the aggressiveness that drove them to three straight division titles from 1970 to 1972. Furthermore, the team now seemed intimidated by Cincinnati’s "Big Red Machine." "Cincinnati will bull**** with us and kick our ass and laugh at us," Ellis said. "They’re the only team that talk about us like a dog." Ellis single-handedly decided to break the Pirates out of their emotional slump, announcing that "We gonna get down. We gonna do the do. I’m going to hit these mother****ers." True to his word, in the first inning of the first regular-season game he pitched against the Reds, Ellis hit leadoff batter Pete Rose in the ribs, then plunked Joe Morgan in the kidney, and loaded the bases by hitting Dan Driessen in the back. Tony Perez, batting cleanup, dodged a succession of Ellis’ pitches to walk and force in a run. The next hitter was Johnny Bench. "I tried to deck him twice," Ellis recalled. "I threw at his jaw, and he moved. I threw at the back of his head, and he moved." At this point, Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh removed Ellis from the game. But his strategy worked: the Pirates snapped out of their lethargy to win a division title in 1974, while the Reds failed to win their division for the first time in three years.
Dock was a legend. He will be greatly missed.
boy it hasn't been a good week with all these deaths, sad for this time of year.
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set.
Many players were notorious for being ready, willing and able to bean an opponent. Gibson and Drysdale most especially. No one ever suggested they should be in jail. Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds, but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them.
My point is that Ellis was willing to state his intentions while the likes of Gibson, Drysdale, Pedro Martinez and others just went out and did it. I find it hard to believe that you would suggest that Ellis should've been encarcerated for such actions that were an accepted part of the game.
Thanks for the kind words on the Mexicans. Still trying to build a complete set in straight PSA 8 to go with the raw sets I've already completed.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If John Rocker would have done this , he would have been in prison.
Ellis belonged in Dannamora (SP?) Prison in upstate NY. >>
Rocker? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
One of the most prolific homerun hitting infielders playing in an east coast city was a daily weed smoker. Hell, he's still stoned more than he's not.
He gave a lot back after he left the game. To find in his passing an opportunity to belittle or insult the man does not speak highly of your compassion. >>
I remember , when Winfield killed the seagull in toronto, the world went nuts. Ellis tries to hurt or maim or kill another human (going for the head is sending a message ) and the guy still played ? In our society , there's reasons why we get upset when one person says or does something and then nothing is said when someone else does the very same thing. I'm glad he gave back something after the fact , but he had a history before that , that wasn't ever resolved. Guys like Ellis had serious anger issues that they didn't know how to resolve, therefore drugs became the copeing mechanism. Gary Gentry , Rob Dibble and others like them , were ran off as soon as their liability exceded their value , as well they should've been. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Guys like Ellis were allowed to continue. Go figure.
Doc Ellis was very talented. I was in my late teens. As stated in the sports forum, Ellis had Bob Gibson stuff without the fire or focus. He could've been one of the best Pirate pitcher, but choose otherwise. This beanball incident was hardly the only issue with Ellis.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult Mr.Ellis , but trying to keep his most infamous expression in its proper perspective. As stated above, if someone else would have done this, heads would've rolled. Being PC, I've never been. Being truthful , I've always tried to be.
P.S.---You have a great 77 Mexican football set. Ever sinse it became known to me, I've admired your set. I tried to start that set , but found them unbelievable tough to find. My hats off to you on your great set.
Many players were notorious for being ready, willing and able to bean an opponent. Gibson and Drysdale most especially. No one ever suggested they should be in jail. Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds, but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them.
My point is that Ellis was willing to state his intentions while the likes of Gibson, Drysdale, Pedro Martinez and others just went out and did it. I find it hard to believe that you would suggest that Ellis should've been encarcerated for such actions that were an accepted part of the game.
Thanks for the kind words on the Mexicans. Still trying to build a complete set in straight PSA 8 to go with the raw sets I've already completed. >>
Thanks for getting back. My beef is not with you.
You say " Ellis stated he wanted to bean each player on the Reds , but never said he wanted to hit them in the head or attempt to kill them. "
Up above is a link , where said he was aiming for the jaw then tried to hit him in the head. This is even modified history as I remember his interview a few days later, defient , saying he would have done even worse if given a chance. If I could quote accurately here and prove it, I would. If the justification for his actions were used by any other class of people, it would be considered a hate-crime. Please read the article above ,change a few names around , then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.
I've heard it said " To be angry but sin not". Life has never been fair, nor will it ever be fair. I am not one who believes that the end justifies the means. I simply do not understand how this type of behaviour is glorified on one hand and vilified on the other. It should be the same.
i personally don't see the parallels.
very confused as to why this belongs in a doc ellis rip thread?
j
RIP GURU
The Reds pitchers had beaned quite a few Pirates and Ellis took the initiative to retalliate. The same was true a few years back when Soriano and Jeter were knocked out by the Red Sox in the same game and the Yankees attempted to retalliate. This has been the norm in baseball for years and while Ellis' statements were bold and similar statements have recently resulted in suspension, the comments at the time and in a different era were not the same as they are today.
Could serious injury have occured had Ellis beaned a player in the jaw? Certainly! Look at Tony Conigliaro or Paul Blair. But many players of that generation had the same approach. It was the norm. It was accepted regardless of how the prima donas of today's game want to treat it. Can you imagine Manny Ramirez batting against Bob Gibson? How far over the plate would he hang? How quickly would he be dropped if he showed up Gibson by standing at the plate admiring a homerun? How many ribs would Gibson break on the next at bat? How loud would Manny scream and how far would he make it to the mound before Gibson came in to meet him?
Today's game is not the same game and I think it wrong to hold Ellis to today's standards. It is all about context and the context of how and when Ellis said what he said are far different than today.