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Anyone interested in a very cool Nickel?
Duane
Posts: 645
Attached below are several photographs of a PCGS 1883 MS64 No Cents Liberty Head Nickel (Eliasberg pedigree) for the mutual enjoyment of all (for the record, I think the coin is a gem, and under-graded – it has a delightful luster and the smoothest surfaces – and of course, it's name and OGH emanates history). This coin is in my personal collection, and as I am interested in other series right now, am willing to sell or trade if anyone should be interested. I think it is a fine coin, a historical museum-level piece, and as I found it at a place and time when it was significantly undervalued, unlike most of the Eliasberg pedigree coins, I can sell/exchange it at a decent level, that is within the reach of all collectors. I have included some information on the series and the nickel mines this coin came from below for education. If nothing else, enjoy the story.
But please PM me if you are interested in owning this historical piece that was once handled by the great collector Eliasberg, and mined by the likes of Mr. Joseph Wharton. I am willing to generously sell or swap.
“The original 1883 issue lacked the word "cents" on the reverse. Since the nickels were the same size as five-dollar gold pieces, some counterfeiters plated them with gold and attempted to pass them off as such. According to legend, a deaf-mute person named Josh Tatum was the chief perpetrator of this fraud, and he could not be convicted because he simply gave the coins in payment for purchases of less than five cents, but did not protest if he was given change appropriate to a five-dollar coin. There is no historical record of Tatum outside of numismatic folklore, however, so the story may well be apocryphal. Sometimes the 1883 nickel is referred to as the “Racketeer Nickel”, and Josh Tatum is sometimes cited as the source of the saying, "You're not Joshin' me, are you?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(United_States_coin)#Liberty_Head_V_nickel_.281883.E2.80.931913.29. “Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania is a hamlet in Bart Township, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The nickel mines that give the town its name were worked in a deposit of sulfide ore, principally millerite … [The mines] were sold out to Joseph Wharton in late 1862. Between 1862 and 1893, 4.5 million pounds of nickel were extracted from the site, up to 25% of world production in some years. Wharton refined the nickel in Camden, New Jersey, and was the first industrial producer of malleable nickel. He was influential in persuading the United States Mint to issue the first five-cent nickel coins in 1866, using nickel produced from his mines.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Mines,_Pennsylvania. “Mr. Wharton made a robust profit from his nickel business over its 40 year duration, but by 1900 its outlook was fading due to foreign competition. Wharton and a group of other United States and Canadian nickel enterprises formed the International Nickel Company in 1902.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wharton#Nickel_manufacture.
Cool, huh?
But please PM me if you are interested in owning this historical piece that was once handled by the great collector Eliasberg, and mined by the likes of Mr. Joseph Wharton. I am willing to generously sell or swap.
“The original 1883 issue lacked the word "cents" on the reverse. Since the nickels were the same size as five-dollar gold pieces, some counterfeiters plated them with gold and attempted to pass them off as such. According to legend, a deaf-mute person named Josh Tatum was the chief perpetrator of this fraud, and he could not be convicted because he simply gave the coins in payment for purchases of less than five cents, but did not protest if he was given change appropriate to a five-dollar coin. There is no historical record of Tatum outside of numismatic folklore, however, so the story may well be apocryphal. Sometimes the 1883 nickel is referred to as the “Racketeer Nickel”, and Josh Tatum is sometimes cited as the source of the saying, "You're not Joshin' me, are you?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(United_States_coin)#Liberty_Head_V_nickel_.281883.E2.80.931913.29. “Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania is a hamlet in Bart Township, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The nickel mines that give the town its name were worked in a deposit of sulfide ore, principally millerite … [The mines] were sold out to Joseph Wharton in late 1862. Between 1862 and 1893, 4.5 million pounds of nickel were extracted from the site, up to 25% of world production in some years. Wharton refined the nickel in Camden, New Jersey, and was the first industrial producer of malleable nickel. He was influential in persuading the United States Mint to issue the first five-cent nickel coins in 1866, using nickel produced from his mines.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Mines,_Pennsylvania. “Mr. Wharton made a robust profit from his nickel business over its 40 year duration, but by 1900 its outlook was fading due to foreign competition. Wharton and a group of other United States and Canadian nickel enterprises formed the International Nickel Company in 1902.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wharton#Nickel_manufacture.
Cool, huh?
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Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
peacockcoins
P.S. There are tons of Eliasberg 1883 no cent nickels in MS-64, it seems like 90% of the OGH coins in this date/grade are pedigreed to him...
Nonetheless, i still love the pedigree!!!
P.S. There are tons of Eliasberg 1883 no cent nickels in MS-64, it seems like 90% of the OGH coins in this date/grade are pedigreed to him...
Nonetheless, i still love the pedigree!!!
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Thanks Speety-
I do agree mostly with what you say about grade, although admit to not being a Liberty Nickel expert by any means. But being a proof Buffalo Nickel collector, and studying nickel as a metal, I can appreciate how tough it is finding well-struck nickel coins!! And I have no illusion that this coin is like the one that braddick was kind enough to share..... But as you mention, braddick is having problems with his strike, as well : )
But seriously, I did just need to ask for clarity on one point that you made, for my own comfort and that of the four collectors who have sent PMs expressing interest in this coin. Aside from the 'coolness factor' of the pedigree, I have little idea on how to fairly price the coin. My experiences with pedigreed coins has been that they usually bring a premium, based strickly on the pedigree. I did actually sell a Matte Lincoln Eliasberg pedigree once (a 1912), but that coin was a much different, being a high end proof, and quite rare and expensive (the book value was 7K, but the final cost was 25K). Likely, the pedigree was very important, and caused a literal tripling of the cost of the coin.
The only other Eliasberg pedigree I could find on-line was a proof half dime on the Pinnacle Rarities site (http://www.pinnacle-rarities.com/CoinSearch.aspx) at $7,450 - they are about $450 over book, so I assume the premium is driven by the pedigree. The other pedigree-driven coin I found was for sale by http://www.northeastcoin.com. It's a [Norweb pedigree] PCGS 1909-S VDB MS65RD for $8,950. The PCGS book is $7,150, which is $1,800 over book. Obviously, this coin is a mint state and a little higher grade, but because of the rarities of the respective coins, it would be ridiculous and unfair to ask for a premium anywere near that. But in this case, ironically, the pedigree very well may be worth more than the coin itself! I have to admit; just holding the coin in hand is a nice feeling, and sense of history in just examining the coin in its holder. I had the same sort of intangible feeling when I owned my first Eliasberg.
But if this series is in your expertise (as it seems to be), I would appreciate tapping your expertise: any fair pricing information you can bring in. I know the book value of the coin is modest, but are Eliasberg Liberty Nickels really as common as you say, or were you just driving home a point on the grade? If they are common, can you point me to a few examples. I'm not being a wise guy, but literally learning something I did not know or expect, or I would have approached this transaction differently.
Let me know your thinking, as I need to be fair with the people who are expressing interest; and as two seem genuinely sincere in wanting the coin, this is important information.
Thank you very much for your time and knowledge.
Duane Blake
several members on the coin forum chimed in some 2 months ago on eliasburg 1883 nickels here...like speety says too they're darn near a dime a dozen in respect
i see this is tha same nickel too as i posted 2 months ago that sat on a site for months at $150.
eliasburg v nickel $
I have to admit, as a coin lover, this is a fun way to spend my Thanksgiving - although my family is razing me pretty badly!
But here is what I found after researching the coin. To begin with, that string you forwarded is awesome - not for the mention of the coin rolls and numbers, but because it contained a link to http://www.libertynickels.org (which I did not know existed). This is a great club! I went through their search engine on that site searching the entire database for 1883 No Cent sales, and after searching the entire database of auction sales (over 100 sales back to 1997), I did not find one 1883 No Cents Nickel at MS64 with the Eliasberg pedigree. I did not expect that, and probably missed something. I'm sure I will be corrected.....
But I went a second step: I ran the terms "1883" "No Cents" and Eliasberg" on the Heritage Auction coin archives [www.ha.com]; -- Here, I found two coins in the archives that both sold in 2000; below, and that that fit my parameters:
PCGS 1883 No Cents MS64 (Eliasberg): http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=230&Lot_No=7088&src=pr#PHOTO
PCGS 1883 No Cents MS65 (Eliasberg): http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=234&Lot_No=142&src=pr
As you can see, the serial number of the MS64 is different from my coin.
So, as far as I can tell, there are at least 2 MS64 Eliasberg 1883 No Cents, and 1 MS65 that I could find, in existence.
The other thing that is interesting about my coin, as Matt Chapman mentioned, are the concentric die cracks on the reverse, and obverse of the coin. On the reverse, the 'cracking' is around the entire diameter of the coin. As Matt suggested, it is a 'concentric ring'. It is very cool, and aside from the crack on the Matte Proof Buffalo Nickel reverse, I have never seen such a dramatic cracking of the die. On the obverse, the cracks are more spider-web like in appearance and mostly through the stars at 11:00 and 3:00 O’clock.
So I'm thinking that if there were rolls of the coins in existence (and I'm not doubting the Liberty Head experts), I'm thinking that the Eliasberg coins from the rolls were either not slabbed and labeled for pedigree, or that individuals kept the Eliasberg coins and holders as coin souvenirs, and found a pretty inexpensive way to own a famously-pedigreed coin. I know I'm appreciating this coin more as I learn more. And in truth, the Eliasberg 1883 No Cent Liberty Nickels may not be as common as assumed.
But anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Ted.
Duane
they're the same serial #'s and this is as clear and verified by my link...your coin is exact serial # as the one i pointed out 2 months ago on eyeappealingcoins
please explain to i and others why you toss that back at me
Sounds more confusing then it is.
My coin came from Ray Hinkelman, just as the string says, so it would have the same registration number..... so that is one (1) Eliasberg 1883 No Cents coin. But as I wrote, I looked at the ha.com archives and www.libertynickels.org database and and found two (2) other Eliasberg 1883 No Cents coins (both are on the ha.com auction archives, and I cited the link for each coin). That makes a total of three (3) Eliasberg 1883 No Cents coins. 1 is graded MS65 and 2 are graded MS64. Mine is 1 of the 2 coins graded MS64. I mentioned I bought the coin for a great price, too (which I did, as you can see on Ray's site, like you point out).
So I commented that I think that there are at least 3 1883 No Cent Eliasberg coins in existence that have been slabbed (and I explain why I think that). There may well be more, but I could not find any evidence, so I wrote that.
Maybe you read the string too quickly, Ted, or I wrote the explanation confusingly. Sorry.
Sincerely,
Duane
happy turkeyday all and be sure to sign up in my giveaway
You're okay.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Duane
The 1883 N/C is not really that expensive of a coin and the pedigree will usually double the price it brings (iirc, usually it's about a $75-100 coin and i see the Eliasbergs sell for near the $175-200 range). Also, for what it's worth, your coin seems to be nicer than the average Eliasberg coin, they are often really poorly struck.
Hopefully i didn't offend you by chiming in with my comments. If you search ebay and past threads on the US Coin forum and BST you will find many results regarding this date.
Mark
Thank you. No offense at all! I thought it was the other way around!!
As I mentioned on the PM, I suppose with an estimated 20-25 in MS64 OGH with the Eliasberg pedigree on them, we have a semi-rare type that no one thought of before - we can call it the 'speety' variation of the Eliasberg pedigree!
Happy hunting!
Duane
<< <i>Mark-
Thank you. No offense at all! I thought it was the other way around!!
As I mentioned on the PM, I suppose with an estimated 20-25 in MS64 OGH with the Eliasberg pedigree on them, we have a semi-rare type that no one thought of before - we can call it the 'speety' variation of the Eliasberg pedigree!
Happy hunting!
Duane >>
But i don't have any of them
I have thought about just picking one up for the heck of it, they are relatively cheap and would fit into our set as an MS-64. The problem is that strike is the main thing i look for in my liberty nickels and i've yet to find one even remotely close to fully struck in an Eliasberg holder!
I'll keep you posted on anything I find.
HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMM.......
Duane
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Sorry to drop out - I had a back operation on Friday. Appreciate all the PMs!
I will do a broader search, but my initial search only showed 3 1883 "Eliasberg" Liberty Head Nickels since 1990 2 '64s and a '65. Speety, who has seen a lot more them me in this series, estimates 20-25 '64's exist, which is still a nice little mini-series to have for any decent collection.
But now we are all curious.....
Speety, you are right on the strike-the obverse is weak of 5 out of 13 of the stars, but the hair is detailed, and on the reverse, the corn is actually a pretty good strike. The luster is not bad on both sides. What other strike indicators do you look for?
Matt-does that Eliasberg catalog you have from 1996 give any hint as to how many he had, or better yet, how many were slabbed? I wonder if PCGS has this information available?
Duane
I think speety is pretty accurate in his assessment. $250-300 is probably fair, after the consideration of pedigree.
See: http://www.coinlink.com/News/us-coins/eliasberg-gold-results-and-observations-from-st-louis/
"But what about the lower priced coins in the sale—how did they do? I figured that there would be a considerable amount of interest and I was personally willing to pay a 15-25% premium for the coins that I liked on account of the fantastic pedigree. For the most part, my levels came up short. I did buy around a half dozen coins and was underbidder on another ten or so but on many ho-hum lots my bids were far too low.
I came away from this sale with a couple of Deep Thoughts. The first is that collectors DO care about pedigrees and there is still no pedigree that is more magic for gold collectors than that of Louis Eliasberg. There were dozens of collectors in the audience at the sale and bidding online who were willing to, say, pay $1,500 for a coin that was probably only “worth” $1,000 to $1,200. And I can absolutely see their point. As a collector myself, I find pedigree to be extremely important and a coin that combines good eye appeal and rarity (or at least scarcity) with an interesting provenance is pretty irrestible to me."
Sincerely,
Duane
Nice nickel for what it is. I have a 1894 proof 63 in a pcgs holder with a few stars POORLY struck. They almost look like blobs.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"